Token section and Exonumia section [solved]

Hi!
I have a few coins that has ended up in the Token and/or Exonumia section. The issue has been risen before, at least from me, and that is that as soon as a coin in my collection ends up in the Token/Exonumia section, it feels like a fail. The main reason for this because both sections are a real mess. Isn't it possible to give it a better struvcture, very much like the main catalogue? Because now it feels like a "unsearched mix bin", when you could sit for hours and end up with nothing. Is there any way these sections could be better organised to one could get a better view of what's in there?

Cheers!

I like the idea of structure. It can be really hard to find things in those two sections, and you don't even know what to search for always, but would have a pretty good idea of where to look in the "normal"catalough if that was the case.

I have thought of it like we could do like like tokens from an issuere (dare I say Micronation too?) like:

Tokens/Exonumia:
- Legoland
- Berlin
- Billund
- Game Tokens
- Germany
- United kingdom
- Micronations
- Turkish Republik of Northern Cyprus
- Sealand
- Christania
- Lundy
- Other/not catalouged

And so on. (Not alphabeticly, sorry)

Best regards
- Jamtrup

My idea in the bottom in here too:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic104927.html

There were many threads about the structuring of the token and exonumia section already.

The problem is that we've opened a bottomless pit when we allowed the inclusion of exonumia because it is a giant heterogeneous field and anyone can make exonumia. Also in the majority of cases not much more is known than the physical dimensions (not very good for categorisation). The Token section is still stuffed full of non monetary/substitiustional objects etc.

I would like to know how much the Token/Exonumia sections are frequented but I guess in comparison to their size not too many care about that stuff at least not enough people that also put quality work in, I for sure don't want to spend a second more than necessary with them. The admins and refs responsible for them I don't want to switch places with.

But we also made progresses in the past it was a garbage heap no it is a bit better sorted junk yard.
We have literal scrap and washers in there somehow surviving token gate on the other end we have high quality medals and then you can't really say here is the border. One person says this is not a medalette it's too crappy another person say it still is and we end up in a case by case trench war.

I think tokens are a bit easier, anything that is a supplementary/substitutional money item with distinct and/or wide usage.
But here we also get in the realm of casino chips and consorts. There are far over 3000 big casinos in the world with many sets of chips over their existence they alone could make up far more then 30,000-40,000 types and personally I want Numista to be about money and not it's substitutes or even worse non money.

Hello,

I plan to create a separate section for tokens and exonumia this year, similar to the section for coins and the section for banknotes.

This way we could have the tokens/medals/etc. with a country and a type (similar to commemorative, NCLT, essais, etc.) assigned correctly, instead of mis-using the currency field.

Hopefully this will help increasing the quality of that section of the catalogue. And if you don't collect telephone tokens for instance, it would be easy to filter them out.

Links to similar topics:

• My tokens
  
• Proposal Re-classification of * Tokens * and ** Exonumia **
  
• Token/Jeton subgroups
  
• Tokens on world map
  
• Filter by country (issuer) For Exonumia coins and Tokens
  
• Overhaul for medals?
  

I have gotten some not so shabbyly made pages for items that at the end didn't belong in the main catalog but after some additional edits I could simply change the "country" and put it up for the token/exonumia staff.
Will it be possible to forward creation requests to the token/exonumia section after this implementation?

Quote: "Idolenz"​The problem is that we've opened a bottomless pit when we allowed the inclusion of exonumia because it is a giant heterogeneous field and anyone can make exonumia. Also in the majority of cases not much more is known than the physical dimensions (not very good for categorisation). The Token section is still stuffed full of non monetary/substitiustional objects etc.

​I agree. To me the Token and Exonumia catalogues are being used as trash bins. If something doesn't fit in the main cataligue, we skmply throw them away to the Tokens or Exonumia section.

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​
​I plan to create a separate section for tokens and exonumia this year, similar to the section for coins and the section for banknotes.
​
​This way we could have the tokens/medals/etc. with a country and a type (similar to commemorative, NCLT, essais, etc.) assigned correctly, instead of mis-using the currency field.

​This sounds interesting and could really save the "throw away" sections. I am thinking though, it it's time to put higher bars for whag stays and whag goes in the catalogue. Like Idolenz mentioned, do we really need/want all casino tokens, vending machine tokens, petrol/gas station tokens, and amusement park tokens? Or do we want clean token section with city and regional tokens that were actually circulated as real currency in a city or region? Here we could actually put the Micronations as well, and I doubt many would object since this then wouldn't be the "throw away" section, but the City and Regional Token section. Real currency, but not for the whole country. Let Colnect and other clown sites handle the casino and vending machine chips. Or maybe that could be a seperate section?

There's not really a way to consistently determine what constitutes a "real" or "high quality" item, though. There's plenty of things that we would probably all agree on, but others that might only be denied on a subjective basis. If we accept the idea of having token and exonumia sections in the first place, I think we have to accept that they're going to be a a bit more wild than coins or banknotes simply because that's how they are in relation to the real world. Casino chips are a good example of this. It's absolutely correct that there are a staggering number of them, but that doesn't negate the fact that they serve/served as a valid private substitute for currency. One person's junk pile of worthless discs is another person's prized token collection (and I say that as someone who isn't really a token collector).

That said, I think there could definitely be a bit of a tightening of standards for the pages themselves. Make pictures a must, require as much information as possible, maybe figure out the most reliable token catalogs and press a bit harder for citations. The whole thing will also make much more sense when it's broken up like the coin and banknote catalogs instead of just being hundreds and hundreds of pages of objects. The act of sorting them alone will do a ton for usability. I look forward to seeing it.

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​
​I plan to create a separate section for tokens and exonumia this year, similar to the section for coins and the section for banknotes.
​
​This way we could have the tokens/medals/etc. with a country and a type (similar to commemorative, NCLT, essais, etc.) assigned correctly, instead of mis-using the currency field.
​
​Hopefully this will help increasing the quality of that section of the catalogue. And if you don't collect telephone tokens for instance, it would be easy to filter them out.

​Yeah! Thanks Xavier!
I believe than most collectors end up with a few token/exonumia items just too interesting to get rid off and it would be great to see those better organized.

I do not post often, but this seems relevant to my interests on this site.

Presently, *Tokens* is actually my biggest "country", with more coins in my collection than US or Germany despite not really being a specific token collector (interestingly this affects the map colors so my entire map is color flattened by the tokens section). I just happen to be attracted to unconventional types of money, which have often just been lumped into *Tokens*.

Notably, I believe there is inconsistency in how we categorize some pieces. Conder tokens, notgeld (including private issues intended for collectors), and Canadian and Australian provincial/colonial tokens are all listed under the country to which they belong, which seems right. But then why not US Hard Times Tokens, sales tax tokens (authorized by state governments and therefore arguably each a separate issuer, just as small Austrian hamlets of a few thousand are each separate issuers for notgeld...), why not Chinese bamboo tallies (not even listed as Chinese under *Tokens*!), why not wage tokens of many countries, under the country in which they were used? I have observed some amazement that POW and concentration camp issues are also under tokens, given their historical significance.

Basically, I believe that if it was used as money, it should go under the country to which it belongs. Non-monetary tokens and exonumia should have their own tab subdivided into countries/issuers, or an equivalent solution. Besides being logical and organized, it also serves to guide people towards these sometimes forgotten alleys of genuine numismatic history since a browsing user is more likely to look at a country of interest rather than dive through hundreds of pages where historical artifacts are displayed alongside pizza arcade tokens.

A rework of the token and exonumia sections will be wonderful, but a lot of work. This material is collected in different manners in different parts of the world. In the US tokens are generally collected by states so to just have a US section where all merchant tokens, for example, are listed side by side would be unwieldy and just a smaller version of the current system we have now. Hopefully each each state will have a section and then categories (sales tax tokens, merchant tokens, transportation tokens, military tokens, etc.) listed under them.
There are also a good number of items in these sections that are really heavily collected and this don’t really have any real conventions in how they are collected or where they fit in, this there will probably still need to be a “catch all” section to add or at least retain these items.

I'm starting to work on the different types of tokens and exonumia. Here is what we currently have on Numista (listed as currencies) in the "tokens" and "exonumia" sections:

• Co-operative tokens
  
• Telephone tokens
  
• Automatic tokens
  
• Souvenir tokens
  
• Casino tokens
  
• Advertising tokens
  
• Merchandise tokens
  
• Mint tokens
  
• Parking tokens
  
• Transit tokens
  
• Car wash tokens
  
• Internment camp tokens
  
• Local tokens
  
• Play tokens
  
• Beer tokens
  
• Encased tokens
  
• Military tokens
  
• New Year tokens
  
• Pharmacy tokens
  
• Shopping cart tokens
  
• Utility tokens
  
• Counter tokens
  
• Wage tokens
  
• Bamboo tally
  
• Mines and forges tokens
  
• Prison tokens
  
• Promotional gas tokens
  
• Restaurant tokens
  
• Plantation tokens
  
• Religious tokens
  
• Touristic tokens
  
• Local dollar tokens
  
• Masonic tokens
  
• Milk tokens
  
• Wooden nickels tokens
  
• Charm tokens
  
• Coal tokens
  
• City ECU
  
• City euros
  
• Consommer tokens
  
• Entertainment and brothels tokens
  
• Exposition tokens
  
• Insurance tokens
  
• Maritime transportation tokens
  
• Legal tokens
  
• Notarial tokens
  
• Phonograph tokens
  
• Political tokens
  
• Shooting tokens
  
• Trade and bank tokens
  
• Miniature coins
  
• Bottle deposit tokens
  
• Gas & electricity tokens
  
• Live action role playing tokens
  
• Public swimming pool tokens
  
• Spielgeld tokens
  
• Spielmarke token
  
• Maui trade dollars
  
• EIC fantasy tokens
  
• Temple tokens
  
• Commemorative restrikes
  
• Local florijn tokens
  
• Tool tokens
  
• Suceava counterfeits
  
• School prize medals
  
• Challenge coins
  
• Farm and hop tokens
  
• Brothels tokens
  
• California gold tokens
  
• Campaign tokens
  
• Centennial dollars
  
• Civil war tokens
  
• Hard times tokens
  
• Mardi gras tokens
  
• Pre-federal tokens
  
• Presidential tokens
  
• Sales tax tokens
  
• So-called dollars
  
• Clay tokens
  
• Bullion
  
• Coin weights
  
• ECU & pre 1999 euro
  
• Fantasy circulation euro tokens
  
• Fantasy issues
  
• Medals
  
• Replicas
  

If we want to make the selection easy, we should probably try to reduce this list to ~20 token types, and perhaps also introduce some subtypes for finer categorization and search. Do you have any suggestion?

O'boy, that's quite a list. I, personally, could easily half that list in an instance. To be to be honest, I only see Local tokens, Prison tokens and maybe Fantasy issues to stay. The rest, I have no idea what they are.

Hi

I don't intend to be the smartest person in the room, but here is a very general proposal of 12 groups (+one =>Unsorted tokens), never mind the group names. I very dare to say, that there may be many more subgroups, but are currently not yet recognized as such on Numista. For each general and subgroup a definition should be set up (Numisdoc).

To be reconsidered is also the link "Add it yourself". If links would be separated by the "means of payment" type (coins, tokens, banknotes, etc in the future), then it would probably be easier to set up and strictly separate lists of "Issuing authorities" for these groups.

Some explanations added in links.

=>Play tokens

• Casino tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_token)
  
• Slot machine tokens (not yet available on Numista, to be reconsidered)
  
• Play tokens
  
• Spielgeld tokens
  
• Spielmarke token
  

=>Service tokens

• Utility tokens
  
• Automatic tokens
  
• Car wash tokens
  
• Shopping cart tokens
  
• Milk tokens
  
• Beer tokens
  
• Telephone tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_token)
  
• Phonograph tokens
  
• Public swimming pool tokens
  
• Entertainment and brothels tokens
  
• Brothels tokens (can it be joined with the one before?)
  
• Coin weights
  
• Gas & electricity tokens
  

=>Deposit tokens

• Tool tokens
  
• Restaurant tokens
  
• Bottle deposit tokens
  

=>Military tokens

• Military tokens
  
• Challenge coins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin)
  

=>Commemorative/Occasional/Event tokens?

• Advertising tokens
  
• Promotional gas tokens
  
• Encased tokens (http://www.encasedcoins.info/)
  
• Touristic tokens
  
• Souvenir tokens
  
• Religious tokens
  
• Mardi gras tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras_Doubloons)
  
• Local florijn tokens?
  
• City ECU
  
• City euros
  
• Commemorative restrikes
  
• Mint tokens
  
• Replicas
  
• Shooting tokens
  
• Presidential tokens (http://www.billjamie.com/Shell/Shell-Coin-Game/Mr-President-Coin-Game/Mr-President-Coin-Game.html)
  
• Centennial dollars
  
• So-called dollars
  
• Maui trade dollars (Maui trade dollars)
  
• Campaign tokens
  
• Exposition tokens
  

=>Transport tokens

• Parking tokens
  
• Transit tokens
  
• Maritime transportation tokens?
  

=>Money substitution tokens

• Sales tax tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_tax_token)
  
• Trade and bank tokens
  
• Prison tokens
  
• Counter tokens
  
• Mines and forges tokens
  
• Wage tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_wages)
  
• Bamboo tally (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo_tally)
  
• Coal tokens
  
• Hard times tokens
  
• Internment camp tokens
  
• Farm and hop tokens
  
• Pharmacy tokens
  
• Plantation tokens (I would melt these into "wage tokens", may be wrong)
  
• Local tokens
  
• Local dollar tokens
  
• Live action role playing tokens (http://www.jezuss.nl/la/larp.htm)
  
• Consommer tokens
  
• Pre-federal tokens
  
• Merchandise tokens
  
• Co-operative tokens
  
• Conder tokens?
  

=>Fantasy tokens

• New Year tokens
  
• Charm tokens
  
• EIC fantasy tokens
  
• Fantasy circulation euro tokens
  
• Fantasy issues
  
• ECU & pre 1999 euro?
  

=>Medals

• Medals
  
• Plaquettes (not yet in the database)
  
• School prize medals?
  

=>Various tokens

• Masonic tokens (https://www.freemason.com/exploring-masonic-coins-symbols/)
  
• Wooden nickels tokens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooden_nickel)
  
• Miniature coins
  

=>Investment tokens? (no such group opened yet)

• Bullion
  

=> Counterfeit coins? (no such group yet, only forum pages)

• Suceava counterfeits
  

***********************

Of others below, I have no idea how to arrange them:
California gold tokens
Civil war tokens
Clay tokens
Insurance tokens
Legal tokens
Notarial tokens
Political tokens
Temple tokens

LP

First and foremost: I think Mikimaus' 12+ idea is pretty solid and does a good job collapsing the categories.

Second: I am not a token expert, so this list is the result of looking at what's in the catalog already and some limited personal knowledge. I'm sure there are all sorts of type-specific conventions, but for the sake of condensation, I sorted mostly by their primary purpose and split up some large categories that are sometimes grouped together. This is why some of the existing categories are repeated as sub-categories here. Something termed a "Presidential Token," for example, might be a souvenir or a political token or an ad. It comes down to the intended use rather than spatial/temporal categories that are too fine-grained to make the catalog legible.

The "sub-categories" here are also not intended as sub-categories for a future system. I just used the existing categories to show where those items might fall in a new <20 category system. I think there's a lot that could be better considered within those categories and some that are so small and specific that (and that no member actually has) that might be worth considering for exclusion.

Utility Tokens
• Telephone tokens
• Gas & electricity tokens
• Coal tokens

Government Tokens
• Military tokens
• Public swimming pool tokens
• Sales tax tokens
• Civil war tokens

Mint Tokens
• Public Issue
• Private Issue
• Local florijn tokens
• Presidential tokens

Retail Tokens
• Pharmacy tokens
• Automatic tokens
• Co-operative tokens
• Merchandise tokens
• Brothels tokens
• Bottle deposit tokens
• Shopping cart tokens
• Beer tokens
• Milk tokens
• Consommer tokens
• Restaurant tokens
• Phonograph tokens
• Maui trade dollars
• Hard times tokens
• Civil war tokens

Medals
• Government Issued
• Privately Issued
o School prize medals

Marketing Tokens
• Advertising tokens
• Insurance tokens
• Wooden nickels
• Hard times tokens

Imitations
• Commemorative restrikes
• Replicas
• Miniature coins
• Suceava counterfeits
• Contemporary Counterfeits
• Modern Fakes

Fantasy Issues
• EIC fantasy tokens
• Fantasy circulation euro tokens
• ECU & pre 1999 euro
• City ECU
• City euros
• Charm

Game Tokens
• Casino tokens
• Live action role playing tokens
• Spielmarke token
• Spielgeld tokens
• Play tokens
• Counter tokens

Industrial Tokens
• Tool tokens
• Wage tokens
• Plantation tokens
• Mines and forges tokens
• Farm and hop tokens

Religious Tokens
• Temple tokens

Carceral Tokens
• Internment camp tokens
• Prison tokens

Transportation Tokens
• Car wash tokens
• Parking tokens
• Transit tokens
• Maritime transportation tokens

Souvenirs
• Souvenir tokens
• Challenge coins
• Promotional gas tokens
• Mardi gras tokens
• So-called dollars
• New Year tokens
• Encased tokens
• Exposition tokens
• Local dollar tokens
• Touristic tokens
• Centennial dollars
• Presidential tokens

Political Tokens
• Political tokens
• Campaign tokens
• Presidential tokens

Bullion
• California gold tokens

Association Tokens
• Challenge coins
• Masonic tokens
• Shooting tokens
• Legal tokens
• Notarial tokens
• Hard times tokens

Banking Tools (???)
• Coin weights
• Clay tokens
• Counter tokens
• Trade and bank tokens
• Hard times tokens

Notgeld (???)
• Bamboo tally

Hello,

I have some questions and thoughts:

⬩ How are we dealing with banknote tokens and exonumia? There are plenty of POW, leprosarium, fantasy notes that should not be listed in the main catalogue, as well as unique categories, such as ATM test notes and postal orders.

⬩ How are we dealing with the list of countries? Specifically for the "fantasy" issues: Should we create a new category of "fantasy issuers" for the likes of Atlantis, Mafia island, Westeros, etc?

⬩ How about tokens that do not really belong to a country? For me, it's difficult to say why this belongs to Italy, and this to the UK. Maybe we should have a generic/international section?

⬩ May be a good opportunity to integrate primitive currency somewhere (Yap stones, Kissi pennies, Katanga crosses, Celtic arrowheads, cowries, shells, Celtic rings, etc).

⬩ May also be a good opportunity to decide where certain things go, such as stamp coins. Some are in the main catalogue now (France, Spain, Germany), some in Tokens (France), some in Exonumia (Spain). Now that the exonumia section is getting organised, I would see all these moved out of the coin catalogue.

⬩ Many of these categories should be combined. E.g.:
↪︎ Local tokens + Bamboo tally + Local dollar + Wooden nickels + Maui dollars + Local florijn + Pre-federal (all local tokens, just for specific places)
↪︎ Religious + Temple tokens
↪︎ City ECU + City euros + EIC fantasy + ECU & pre 1999 euro + Fantasy circulation euro + Fantasy issues (all fantasy, just for specific places)
↪︎ Play tokens + Miniature coins + Spielgeld + Spielmarke + Live action role playing tokens (all play money)

⬩ I would see even fewer categories for the main structure, and keep most categories in a second hierarchy:

TOKENS
a substitute for money; a voucher that can be exchanged for goods or services (coin- and banknote-like)

• Currency substitutes
⸰ Local tokens + Bamboo tally + Local dollar + Wooden nickels + Maui trade dollars + Local florijn + Pre-federal
⸰ Internment camp + Prison tokens + POW
⸰ Work encampments: Mines and forges + Coal + Plantation + Farm and hop + Wage tokens
⸰ Lepper colonies
⸰ Military tokens
⸰ School tokens (Eg.)
⸰ Foreign exchange certificates
⸰ Promissory notes (including postal orders)

• Trade tokens / Products
⸰ Co-operative + Centennial dollars + Civil war + Hard times + So-called dollars
⸰ Merchandise + Beer + Milk + Consommer
⸰ Gas & electricity + Utility tokens
⸰ Restaurant tokens
⸰ Pharmacy tokens
⸰ Deposit tokens: Tool + Bottle deposit tokens

• Trade tokens / Services
⸰ Car wash tokens
⸰ Parking tokens
⸰ Transit tokens + Maritime transportation tokens
⸰ Telephone + telegraph tokens
⸰ Phonograph tokens
⸰ Entertainment and brothels tokens + Brothels tokens
⸰ Casino tokens
⸰ Automatic/slot machine tokens
⸰ Insurance tokens
⸰ Trade and bank tokens
⸰ Taxation tokens + Sales tax tokens (Eg.)
⸰ Religious tokens + Temple tokens (the ones for religious services Eg., )
⸰ Exposition tokens
⸰ Public swimming pool tokens
⸰ Shopping cart tokens

• Trade tokens / Events
⸰ Shooting tokens (used for ammunition at shooting festivals, Eg.1)
⸰ Festival tokens (used for food, drinks, etc. during the festival, Eg.1, Eg.2, Eg.3, Eg.4, Eg.5, Eg.6)

MEDALS
items intended to record, commemorate, award, or celebrate a person, institution, place, event, etc. (only coin-like)

• Commemorative medals / medallions
⸰ Historical, Religious, Political, Presidential etc.

• Award medals / medallions
⸰ Awards: Actual Nobel medals, Fields medals, Pritzker, RAS, Bruce, Bell, etc
⸰ Event awards and prizes: sporting, actual Olympic medals, shooting medals, music festivals,
⸰ Generic awards and school prizes

• Souvenir medals / medallions
⸰ Event souvenirs: New Year tokens + some Charms + Mardi Gras tokens
⸰ Touristic tokens + Encased tokens
⸰ Advertising Tokens + Promotional gas + Campaign tokens
⸰ Membership medals / medallions: Masonic tokens + Challenge coins + Numismatic clubs
⸰ Art medals (like the ones of Hans Erni)

OTHERS

• Utility items
Items used in relation to cash transactions, in mints, banks, etc
⸰ Mint tokens (Eg. blank planchets, not items about mints)
⸰ Counter tokens
⸰ Coin weights
⸰ ATM test notes

• Fantasy items
⸰ Real places: City ECU + City euros + EIC fantasy + ECU & pre 1999 euro + Fantasy circulation euro tokens
⸰ Fantasy places: Fantasy currencies
⸰ Play tokens + Miniature coins + Spielgeld + Spielmarke + Live action role playing tokens

• Bullion
⸰ Coins
⸰ Bars (Eg.)
⸰ Notes (?)

• Replicas & Counterfeits
⸰ Modern Replicas
⸰ Contemporary Counterfeits (Suceava counterfeits and others)

• Primitive money

Hi

Where do we put colored Euro coins, like this one:



LP

I like the reduced list of Stratocaster, it even better draws the line between tokens (with some trading value) and exonumia. It will mean that some of the subsections will need to be cleaned out, as they now quite often contain all kind of mixed tokens. And like already mentioned, a clear definition of each subcategory is needed to keep those lines.

I would however suggest to put Gas promotional (BP, shell, ...) in the advertising section, as (as far as I know from childhood) they were just meant for collection and otherwise useless ... Also some of the pre-euro euro coins also circulated locally, so should be considered local currency. This points to the greatest weakness of the subdivision and that is finding sources to figure out what circulated and what not, documentation of this will be very much needed (maybe a numisdoc per section?).

Neither a token collector, but have seen many pass through my hands and almost as often annoyed by the not-always-logical-subdivision ;)
2020 gave a flying start to banknotes, let 2021 be the year of the tokens

Quote: "mikimaus"​Hi
​
​Where do we put colored Euro coins, like this one:
​
​
​
​LP
​

​Aren't those legal tender, at least in the country where they come from?

Quote: "mikimaus"​Hi
​
​Where do we put colored Euro coins, like this one:
​
​
​
​LP
​

​Maybe add a "modified currency" section to the medals, it can contain colored coins, these invalidated Belgian coins (issued by Belgian mint!), these irradiated dimes, ... ?

The problem with the word token is that it is extremely overused with the widest definitions HERE.
But for us only two are relevant, the one we should want in Tokens:
A piece of stamped metal or plastic, etc., used as a substitute for money; a voucher that can be exchanged for goods or services.

- no Shooting tokens if that's similar to Shooting thalers which are just medals you could win as a price (few had a fiat value for a short time)
- no Spielgeld they are just toys
- Mardigras tokens, if at all should go under Entertainment and brothels tokens, I don't know if flashing your tits for cheap beads/tokens counts as a service or simple degeneracy though
- no challange "coins"
- no promo are advertisement tokens
- no fantasy stuff
- and I still don't think shopping cart rounds belong there, they are just a piece of metal or plastic to unlock a mechanism, you don't "pay" with them.

these and others should go into Exonumia:
A keepsake. Synonyms: memento, souvenir

For Replicas only items clearly marked as such with a stamp or modern year should be accepted. I see so many listings I would just categorize as bad Chinese fakes and these should be put in the Numisdoc if that ever gets to work again.

Quote: "smvdbrink"​​​Aren't those legal tender, at least in the country where they come from?

They are altered currency and technically not money anymore. Personally I would classify non official color coins as post mint damage and not to put them anywhere.

Quote: "Idolenz"​Personally I would classify non official color coins as post mint damage and not to put them anywhere.

I agree with this.

@BramVB, Idolenz : I agree, I've updated my list. I actually had no idea what many of these are, like promo gas and Mardi Gras tokens.

Missed this topic somehow but great to see so much talk about reorganization.

Not adding much myself now because I absolutely agree on the list from stratocaster.

Also the seperation of Tokens / Medals and / Others (Exonumia) makes perfect sense.

Yes many current currency categories which are pretty much duplicates and can be combined. Also currently there are many pieces which do not fit in the defenition of a Token in our Tokens section.

"- Many of these categories should be combined. E.g.:
↪︎ Local tokens + Bamboo tally + Local dollar + Wooden nickels + Maui dollars + Local florijn + Pre-federal (all local tokens, just for specific places)
↪︎ Religious + Temple tokens
↪︎ City ECU + City euros + EIC fantasy + ECU & pre 1999 euro + Fantasy circulation euro + Fantasy issues (all fantasy, just for specific places)
↪︎ Play tokens + Miniature coins + Spielgeld + Spielmarke + Live action role playing tokens (all play money)"

As Stated by Stratocaster, the description of what a Token, Medal and Other Exonumia is also very important.

TOKENS
a substitute for money; a voucher that can be exchanged for goods or services (coin- and banknote-like)

MEDALS (To be created new next to Tokens and Others (Exonumia)
items intended to record, commemorate, award, or celebrate a person, institution, place, event, etc.

OTHERS (Current Exonumia)

Quote: "stratocaster"​• Trade / Service tokens
​⸰ Telephone/Telegraph tokens

• Test items for transactions, coins or machines
​⸰ Mint tokens (To be moved in Souvenir tokens)
​⸰ Test tokens (for this kind of tokens)
​⸰ Counter tokens
​⸰ Coin weights
​⸰ ATM test notes

I will personnaly make the correction above.

Nice to see all the progress being made here.

Firstly: I really like stratocaster's list--it seems very comprehensive and efficiant. The only missing item I can think of is Postal Orders, which... might work under service tokens?

I would also suggest moving the Contemporary counterfeits to a sub-section of Currency replacements. Modern replicas and contemporary counterfeits are very different types of items, in my mind. Looking specifically at those Suceava counterfeits: those pieces definitely did circulate. But those modern replicas of China? No circulation whatsoever. This distinction is also important for what follows:

In regards to the country-list organization of Tokens, I think our current overall catagories of Modern, Ancient, Limited recognition, and Micronations has little relevance here. I would suggest to scrap that, and instead, I think a better organization would mostly follow stratocaster's list:

Quote: "stratocaster"​​TOKENS [*** Overall catagory]

[List of issuers with relevance in this catagory]
​​
​• Trade / Service tokens [*** Token "type"]
​⸰ Car wash tokens [*** Issuer "currency"]
​⸰ Insurance tokens [*** Issuer "currency"]
​⸰ Exposition tokens [*** Issuer "currency"]
​
[For "currency", I imagine that term also has little relevance in regards to most Tokens. While this would look like our current currency section, I would suggest a different name, like "catagory".]

In regards to stratocaster's list, everything under Tokens (including contemporary counterfeits) and Medals could easily follow the above format.

If we use the above format, I think this would be the perfect time to start listing the Primitive money as well. Part of what I fear, regarding this particular catagory, is that these primitive issuers will be lost within a list of modern countries / fantasy issuers. If Primitive money has its own section, everything will be listed side-by-side, meaning everything will be easy to find and navigate.

Similarly, Fantasy issuers could also have its own overall catagory. There are a lot of very weird places out there, and if Fantasy issuers get its own section, we will not dilute the other sections with all these places. This would also be a great opportunity to see which issuers belong in the Coin catalogue, as well as which from the Coin catalogue should be moved to Tokens (based on if they managed to get their coins/banknotes to actually circulate, if I recall the criterion correctly).

And that just leaves the Utility items, Fantasy items for existing countries, Bullion, and Replicas*. We could possibly give them each their own overall catagories, as like the above two catagories, or perhaps we could group them all under a generic Exonumia issuer. I am not quite sure what would work best here, so thoughts on this would be nice.

*Contemporary counterfeits would not work under an Exonumia section, so if we go with this generic section, there would definitely have to be a division. However, even if we went the other way and gave Modern replicas its own overall catagory, I still think the contemporary counterfiets would work better under Tokens.

And for a specific order of all the above, I would suggest the following:

• Tokens
  
• Medals
  
• [Exonumia?]
  
• Fantasy issuers
  
• Primitive money
  

-----

With all that being said, the above overall catagories would pose one particular problem: Tokens, Medals, and Exonumia would have many duplicate issuers. I think this could be solved by either connecting all identical issuers together, or having some sort of automatic arrangement based on the Token types (if you select Canada and "Service token", it automatically goes to the Canada under Tokens; if you select Canada and "Commemorative medal", if automatically goes to the Canada under Medals). I am not sure how that would exact work, but it sounds possible to me.

@ Indomini16 thanks for the suggestions, I edited the list.

@ Sulfur: I was making some small changes and added "promissory notes" (including postal orders) and foreign exchange certificates to tokens, before I saw your post. Probably they could also be in service tokens as well.

For me, tokens, medals, bullions, counterfeits, are all exonumia. So an "Exonumia" section along Coins and Banknotes at the top would probably work best.
Then instead of the country list, we could have the categories, like Sulfur said. But I would consider splitting them in metal and paper:
​
+ Coin-like items:
----- Tokens
---------- Service tokens
---------- Trade tokens
----- Medals
+ Paper items:
----- Vouchers
----- Fantasy issues

Clicking on each category would bring the list of countries that issued that particular type of item.
And to navigate between Tokens and Coins, we could also have the Exonumia section in the "see also" like for coins and banknotes.

Some more thoughts:
- I would personally relocate all Micronations to souvenir items. These are just companies that sell stamps, coins, make believe passports and tours to their premises. They pay taxes to the countries they are in. Prooved by the recent bankruptcy of the Hutt Principality.
- we should also relocate all the tokens in the coin section to the token section when it becomes available. (Eg.)

I just assumed coin-tokens and banknote-tokens would be listed separately in their own sections (like how coins and banknotes are). However, I do see how space could be a problem here (as well as naming).

Perhaps, with the heading bar, coins and banknotes could be made as drop-downs? Otherwise saying, the above sections could be modified to show the following:

• Coins
  
• ----- Coins
  
• ----- Tokens
  
• Banknotes
  
• ----- Banknotes
  
• ----- Tokens
  

Or, there could be a singluar 'Tokens' (or 'Exonumia') heading, and when clicking that section, there is an obvious button that allows one to switch from viewing coin-tokens to banknote-tokens and vise versa.

I imagine mixing coin-tokens and banknote-tokens in one list would look fairly messy, and those overall catagories could be put to a better use.

-----

Also, I do think our current country-list format, divided by issuers with many sub-issuers, is important. If the country list was arranged by item type (Coin-like: Tokens --> Service tokens --> Canada, for example), we will have many duplicates of 'Canada' scattered throughout every catagory, and I imagine we will not be able to do much issuer organization (so it will look like how our country list originally was, with one long, unorganized list--although there will be one long, unorganized list for every catagory, in this case).

If we stick to our current issuer-format, we will still have three levels of country divisions to work with for the oganization of these issuers (this could particularly look nice for the microstates, if we group them by the countries they are located within). This will also limit the amount of duplication amongst the various issuers, with the specific types of Tokens divided in a section similar to our current "currency" section.

The way I want to see it is similar to how the Tokens section is currently formated (with countries coming first, followed by type). I have never actually been a fan of how the Exonumia section is formatted (with type coming first, followed by country). Keeping everything from the same country in the same place seems more understandable to me, as well as more easily organizable.

I did not mean to duplicate issuers at all. All coins, tokens and banknotes should stay under the same issuer, and we should reuse the list we already have. The category page I described would work like the filters for continents. Eg. when I select Primitive money, I see a filtered list of countries with only those that issued it.

And I should be able to filter at any level: for example, only see countries that issued milk tokens, or merchandise tokens, or all types of metal tokens.

This would allow me to browse and search a list of historic medals from all countries, without mixing these up with shopping trolley tokens. That would be as bad as mixing up coins and banknotes.

But the filters should also allow me to combine different types of objects, eg. Circulation coins, Local tokens, and historic medals together. Or even... coins and banknotes if I want to.

Oh, I see. That means we were talking about completely different things--mine was about the entire format of the country list. Filters would be nice to see as well.

Hello,

I'm progressing on this development.

• Exonumia will appear as a new tab next to Coin and Banknotes.
  
• Exonumia will cover both tokens/medals and paper exonumia.
  
• For Exonumia, the criteria for type/subtype of exonumia will be visible directly in the search box, next to the selection of the issuer, with no need to click on "Add filter"
  
• For Exonumia, the section "Browse the catalog by issuer" below the search box will be replaced by "Browse the catalog by type"
  
• We will stop mis-using the fields for issuing country and currency, and set the real issuing country (if applicable) and the real currency (if applicable)
  
• Probably not in the first release but maybe in the future, we should have a searchable field for the issuing entity (similar to the issuing bank for banknotes), for the organization who ordered the production of the tokens.
  

I still have some doubts on the types and subtypes. I believe the list from Stratocaster above is a very good base. I just would like to add some comments:

• We should not mix tokens/medals and paper exonumia. I'm not sure whether this should be done at type level or subtype level, but at least a given subtype should contain only tokens/medals or only paper exonumia. For example, the touristic zero-euro notes should have a different subtypes (or maybe type) than the touristic tokens.
  
• Probably we don't need 3 levels of types/subtypes, and 2 levels could be enough. For example "Utility tokens > Coin weights" could be enough instead of "OTHERS > Utility tokens > Coin weights".
  
• I'm confused by the section "Currency substitutes". Probably that's because of the name, which is too generic: for example, casino tokens can also legitimately be called a currency substitute. Perhaps we should rename into "Local currency" or "local money" or something like that and have the foreign exchange certificates (if we consider them as exonumia) and postal orders split out.
  
• I'm not sure why we should distinguish product, service and events trade tokens. The distinction looks artificial to me. Also, I understand that co-operative tokens can be used for both products and services.
  
• It may be nice to split further the different subtypes of commemorative medals and award medals.
  

Once we finalize the structure, the next step will be to finalize the names of each type/subtype and ideally given them a definition.

This all sounds really great and I'm looking forward to a more clean and organised Exonumia section.

Quote: "Xavier"

• I'm confused by the section "Currency substitutes". Probably that's because of the name, which is too generic: for example, casino tokens can also legitimately be called a currency substitute. Perhaps we should rename into "Local currency" or "local money" or something like that and have the foreign exchange certificates (if we consider them as exonumia) and postal orders.
  

​I reckon local currency would be the best. "Money" sounds like an amateur; "I collect money" .

Cheers for the updates, mate!

Hello, great to hear updates. Also great to have some more comments

Quote: "Xavier"​Probably we don't need 3 levels of types/subtypes
[...]
​It may be nice to split further the different subtypes of commemorative medals and award medals.

I don't think these can be satisfied simultaneously.
​​​

Quote: "Xavier"Perhaps we should rename into "Local currency"

I see the problem, but I don't know if this renaming fixes it. If "Local currency" will contain schools and prisons, I think casinos still won't be excluded.

I tried another structure with different names, avoiding the product/service distinction, splitting paper exonumia, and subdividing medals, with some examples:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tugi91yo6xu5nEwh_PjCYfaaZ_y-fXkCN73bHg15g0A/edit?usp=sharing

Comments welcome.
Regards
strato

Hello,
Exonumia now has its own section on Numista. The robot is actively (but slowly) migrating all the items currently assigned to the issuers "* Tokens *" and "** Exonumia **" to their new place.
This is a first working version for the exonumia catalogue. Expect some adjustments and improvements in the future.

Wauw, great ... are we going get another huge update next year around this time
(seems to becoming a habit after the banknotes last year )

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​Exonumia now has its own section on Numista. The robot is actively (but slowly) migrating all the items currently assigned to the issuers "* Tokens *" and "** Exonumia **" to their new place.
​This is a first working version for the exonumia catalogue. Expect some adjustments and improvements in the future.

​Thanks Xavier,
This would make it much easier to find tokens/Exonumia and to keep track of what I have and what I need also this coincides with the addition of banknotes nearly a year ago.

Also I’ve noticed and other people have is that our banknote collection has disappeared.

Amazing to see this!!


Minor thing: "Scolastic or academic award" should be Scholastic

And is there a plan to be able to browse each category by issuer? e.g. see the list of countries that issued historic medals when I click on "historic medals"? instead of a long mixed list?

Maybe a short description for each category would also help to give a better idea of what should go where.

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​Exonumia now has its own section on Numista. The robot is actively (but slowly) migrating all the items currently assigned to the issuers "* Tokens *" and "** Exonumia **" to their new place.
​This is a first working version for the exonumia catalogue. Expect some adjustments and improvements in the future.

​Hi

Perfect. Now we the users need to learn the structure of the new field "Type".

I would have one remark already. The "Military token" type is probably too broad and should be separated in at least another main type, that is "Challenge coins" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin / https://www.medalsofamerica.com/military-challenge-coins ...), then subdivided into Military challenge coins, politics, police, firefighters, etc... At least here in Slovenia, military issued well over one thousand military challenge coins (I managed to add only about 200 until now), up to hundred police ones, and so on...

When robot does its job the best it can, I presume the rest of the tokens and exonumia pieces, which shall be without the new feature "Type" shall fall to "Unknown" type? Any insights in how much manual work shall be needed to properly set up current database entries? What is a general expectation toward users/referees in setting records straight? Are we about to see referees for each states, token and exonumia wise (I may assume Cyrillus has a real hard job administering this whole section almost by him self)?

LP

Quote: "mikimaus"​I would have one remark already. The "Military token" type is probably too broad and should be separated in at least another main type, that is "Challenge coins"

​The way the section is organised currently, "Challenge coins" should go under "Membership tokens".

Military tokens should only contain tokens with a face value that were used as cash replacement in military bases:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces58007.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces196357.html

Quote: "BramVB"​Wauw, great ... are we going get another huge update next year around this time
​(seems to becoming a habit after the banknotes last year )

​Numismatic litterature, coin sets... Who knows?
(Too be honest, I have no idea yet about what will come next year. The next big updates I would like to implement this year are more languages and online museum collections.)

Quote: "Worldwide collection"​Also I’ve noticed and other people have is that our banknote collection has disappeared.

​Sorry for that. It's fixed.

Quote: "stratocaster"​​Minor thing: "Scolastic or academic award" should be Scholastic

Fixed.
​

Quote: "stratocaster"​​And is there a plan to be able to browse each category by issuer? e.g. see the list of countries that issued historic medals when I click on "historic medals"? instead of a long mixed list?
​
​Maybe a short description for each category would also help to give a better idea of what should go where.

​I would like to improve the pages showing the results for each coin type, so that it shows an index of countries at the top (similar to the index of currencies or rulers) and a description (similar to the introduction of countries).

Quote: "mikimaus"​When robot does its job the best it can, I presume the rest of the tokens and exonumia pieces, which shall be without the new feature "Type" shall fall to "Unknown" type? Any insights in how much manual work shall be needed to properly set up current database entries? What is a general expectation toward users/referees in setting records straight? Are we about to see referees for each states, token and exonumia wise (I may assume Cyrillus has a real hard job administering this whole section almost by him self)?

I expect there will still be a lot of manual work to correctly categorize the exonumia pieces to the correct types.
I took the list of types from Stratocaster's link above (with 1 or 2 adjustments). The robot will migrate the best it can based on the name of the current dummy currencies. Unfortunately, many tokens have a currency that just says "Token". Even for the more explicit currencies, there are many mistakes today, which the robot will not help to fix. The uncategorized exonumia items can be found with the types "Miscellaneous token" and "Miscellaneous paper exonumia".

Here is a list of remaining improvements to do:

• Improve the texts / translations related to exonumia throughout the whole website
  
• Make the selection of the exonumia type filter directly visible in the search box instead of hidden with "Add filters".
  
• Improve the pages showing the results for each exonumia type (better title, index of countries, SEO optimization)
  
• Maybe a forum section for exonumia
  
• Allow moving a coin from one category to another (e.g. from "coin" to "exonumia") without the robot.
  
• Make the robot move patterns from the coin catalogue to exonumia (but not the trial strikes).
  
• Remove the dummy issuers "tokens" and "exonumia" and clean up the code of the website for all the specific behaviours related to these issuers.
  
• Once we get more experience with categorizing exonumia, refine the list of exonumia types
  
• Edit the pages of exonumia items to reflect the correct types (especially those currently categorized as miscellaneous) and the correct issuer (especially for those without an issuer or those which belong to a category-issuer, e.g. Swiss cantons, German states, Italian states, Austrian states, Moravia, Silesia, ancient Rome, etc.)
  
• Add the missing issuers which are needed for exonumia, especially for fantasy coins and micronations.
  

For your information, the robot also has to move pictures to a different folder when migrating the exonumia pieces from Coins and banknotes to Exonumia. This takes more time than I expected. With the current pace, it will take a couple of days to complete.

Two mistakes [see arrows]

Quote: "ZacUK"​ Two mistakes [see arrows]
​

​Thanks! I hope the error with the collection history will solve itself by tomorrow. Otherwise I'll have a further look tomorrow.
I fixed the typo for the export. I was really unsure for the correct words to use ("exonumia" / "pieces of exonumia", "item", etc.) I tried my best, feel free to suggest corrections wherever it can be improved.

Hi
As it is still fresh... shall it be made available to split Yugoslavia as a token/exonumia currency into eight separate subsections - six federal republics and two autonomous regions? This would appeal to many collectors from this part of the planet.
LP

Quote: "Xavier"​

Quote: "BramVB"​Wauw, great ... are we going get another huge update next year around this time
​​(seems to becoming a habit after the banknotes last year )

​​Numismatic litterature, coin sets... Who knows?
​(Too be honest, I have no idea yet about what will come next year. The next big updates I would like to implement this year are more languages and online museum collections.)
​=1em (I may assume Cyrillus has a real hard job administering this whole section almost by him self)?
​

​Possibly stamps? I agree we need more referees for the new page possibly for each category or fantasy country/micronation.

Very nice to see this implemented!

And it would definitely be nice to be able to help migrate some stuff from Coins to Exonumia. As far as I am aware, all the Primitive money is listed under their respective countries rather than under Tokens, so whenever the Robot finishes, I imagine those items would be untouched (although I do have a list of links, if that can be of help).

That aside:

Quote: "Xavier"

• Make the robot move patterns from the coin catalogue to exonumia (but not the trial strikes).
  ​
  

​I know I am most definitely in the minority here, but I am actually going to be sad to see this happen. Specifically with China, I feel like we will be hiding a bit of history by doing this because this particular country had quite a few failed currencies due to unfortunatue timing (the Shanghai Tael with the aftermath of the Opium Wars, the Kwanping Tael with a failed mint, and the Peking Tael with the Boxer Rebellion; there was also the Gold Standard and the Mei, but those did not fail due to external reasons). All examples of those five currencies are only known by patterns, so by moving them away from China, we would be losing a lot of interesting (and generally unknown) pieces.

I understand that the patterns never technically circulated; however, they were still issued by the government as a 'maybe', and they did have an intended value on them (which is why, while they were not meant to circulate, some individual examples do show signs of circulation).

And if we are actually moving Patterns, I do not quite understand why we would be keeping Trial strikes--they were also not technically meant to circulate, with the main difference being that they actually looked like coins that did.

I imagine many people would like to see the patterns gone because they clog up the coin list; however, I still think using the filters is the best solution to that issue.

Quote: "mikimaus"​Hi
​As it is still fresh... shall it be made available to split Yugoslavia as a token/exonumia currency into eight separate subsections - six federal republics and two autonomous regions? This would appeal to many collectors from this part of the planet.
​LP

​I'm not sure about the details, but any missing currency or issuers should be added, the same way as we do for coins and banknotes.

Quote: "Worldwide collection"​
​​Possibly stamps?

​No. Numista is only about numismatics.

Quote: "Xavier"​
​

Quote: "Worldwide collection"​
​​​Possibly stamps?

​​No. Numista is only about numismatics.

​Ok I’m struggling to think of anything else apart of from gems and things that rot such as lamb skins and beans or Challenge coins which will probably go under Exonumia and unused cheques but that is a stretch.

Quote: "Sulfur​"​I understand that the patterns never technically circulated; however, they were still issued by the government as a 'maybe', and they did have an intended value on them...

Whether they circulated or not is not important (in my opinion of course), proofs and NCLT's don't circulate either. It's important they were commissioned by an official authority which earns them a place in the main catalog, just as trial strikes.
​

Quote: "Sulfur"​I imagine many people would like to see the patterns gone because they clog up the coin list; however, I still think using the filters is the best solution to that issue.

Like said above, they deserve a place in the main catalog, but all of them in a separate category at the end of each country (just like in Krause) to avoid clogging up/cluttering the coin list, which is a much better solution than using the filters. This solution works for everybody. Members who don't have any interest in patterns/trial strikes still can use the filters to totally avoid them, but members who do have an interest in them can still see them without them clogging up the coin list. This part of the members doesn't have any benefit when the only solution is the use of the filters.

Quote: "Essor Prof"​​Like said above, they deserve a place in the main catalog, but all of them in a separate category at the end of each category (just like in Krause) to avoid clogging up/cluttering the coin list, which is a much better solution than using the filters.

​For some issuers such as Finland or Hong Kong, patterns are listed as a separate currency. That could be a solution.

Quote: "Essor Prof"​​​​Like said above, they deserve a place in the main catalog, but all of them in a separate category at the end of each category (just like in Krause) to avoid clogging up/cluttering the coin list, which is a much better solution than using the filters.

​Of course that was a typo and had to be "at the end of each country"!

Quote: "Essor Prof"​
​Whether they circulated or not is not important (in my opinion of course), proofs and NCLT's don't circulate either. It's important they were commissioned by an official authority which earns them a place in the main catalog, just as trial strikes.

​I also agree with this.

Although I do see the benefit of listing patterns based on their denoinations, amongst the coins. In this thread, stratocaster suggested sorting by type--I think that would help the most. That way, you can choose whether patterns are amongst the coin list or listed at the end; or, with filters, you can choose not to see the patterns at all.

-----

Back to the new Exonumia section, I have found an error:

If I have both a Country and a singular Exonumia type are selected (for example: Canada and Miscellaneous tokens), and I then click a new page in the list, the Exonumia type is then automatically set to 'All'.

-----

And it looks like there are a decent amount of Laundry tokens in the catalogue. Perhaps that should be another type of Automatic token?

Just adding a few more to-do's:

• Better explore where to categorize patterns
  
• Fix navigation between pages when searching by country and exonumia type
  
• Fix the search by composition and shape for exonumia
  
• Once the exonumia types are correctly set (by the robot and manually) and the list of exonumia types is refined, remove the dummy currencies and replace by the real currency when applicable.
  

Quote: "Xavier"​Just adding a few more to-do's:​

​Hi

Please check https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia60185.html, this piece (and similar) should fall into the category of Spielmarke tokens, but the type is not available. There are many similar instances with already moved pages.

One more question. Where do the food vending machines tokens fit in?

LP

Quote: "Sulfur"​Although I do see the benefit of listing patterns based on their denoinations, amongst the coins. In this thread, stratocaster suggested sorting by type--I think that would help the most. That way, you can choose whether patterns are amongst the coin list or listed at the end; or, with filters, you can choose not to see the patterns at all.

​No, not at all. Of course it will help the problem about the patterns, but not only the patterns are affected by sorting by type, also non circulating coins and circulating commemorative coins change places, and then we'll even be further from home than now. I think a lot of members order their collections following the standard Numista order, sorting by type changes all of that. If the only purpose of sorting by type is to separate the patterns, it certainly isn't the solution (more disadvantages than advantages).
Choosing not to see the patterns at all isn't an option either because the trial strikes will disappear too.

I'm not looking forward starting to add my French collection to the database. Almost 600 patterns between the other coinage, that's a lot of unnecessary scrolling. That's not clogging up anymore that's just cluttering.

Bottom line: although I still believe patterns deserve their place in the main catalog, if they can't get their own separate category at the end of each country I'll be glad if they move to the exonumia section.

Quote: "mikimaus"​​Please check https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia60185.html, this piece (and similar) should fall into the category of Spielmarke tokens, but the type is not available.
​

Not fully aware of the whole background of these, but I believe they should go in Fantasy items / play money.

Quote: "Essor Prof"​
​​No, not at all. Of course it will help the problem about the patterns, but not only the patterns are affected by sorting by type, also non circulating coins and circulating commemorative coins change places, and then we'll even be further from home than now.

​If you think it will not help at all, then this would be a case of "can't make everyone happy".

You are correct that it would sort all the different coin types, but that would also be very helpful. If you take a country like Canada, who issues a ridiculous amount of non-circulating coins each year, those non-circulating coins can be just as annoying as some think patterns are. So, for some countries, this would be very helpful.

Of course, this would just be an option--if you do not like it, you do not have to use it, but the more options we have, the better. I'd say it is worth a try, and if it happens to appease the majority of those who dislike patterns, I would call that a win (because, again: we can't please everyone here); and if it does not, then we keep looking.

Quote: "Essor Prof"​Choosing not to see the patterns at all isn't an option either because the trial strikes will disappear too.

​I do not quite see this as a problem--if someone wants hide patterns, I imagine they would also not want to hide the trial strikes. However, even if that is most people, there may be a few who think otherwise, meaning the obvious solution would be: give "Trial strikes" its own type.

From the Exonumia section, I am seeing the following:


There is a redundant link to "Exonumia" rather than a link to "Banknotes".

Quote: "Sulfur"​You are correct that it would sort all the different coin types, but that would also be very helpful. If you take a country like Canada, who issues a ridiculous amount of non-circulating coins each year, those non-circulating coins can be just as annoying as some think patterns are. So, for some countries, this would be very helpful.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to a new category "type" to sort, it certainly can be helpful but it doesn't fix the patterns problem.

​

Quote: "Sulfur"if you do not like it, you do not have to use it, but the more options we have, the better. I'd say it is worth a try, and if it happens to appease the majority of those who dislike patterns, I would call that a win (because, again: we can't please everyone here)

Indeed, we can't please everyone here. But I'm wondering who else sees the benefit of listing patterns among the coins. Patterns are rare and expensive. Look at the French patterns, most of these have zero members who own it and there will never be members who ever will. For the others, in best case one or just a few members will have them. And who says they explicitly want those patterns between the other coins.
Not complaining about the cluttering patterns doesn't mean people are happy with it, that's a big difference. Only very few will or can benefit from the patterns being among the other coins, but a lot of members have to take the negative consequences, does that outweigh each other? We can't please everyone here but I wonder who's pleasing who.

​

Quote: "Sulfur"​​I do not quite see this as a problem--if someone wants hide patterns, I imagine they would also not want to hide the trial strikes. However, even if that is most people, there may be a few who think otherwise, meaning the obvious solution would be: give "Trial strikes" its own type.

I think you've made a typo and that (bold) "not" wasn't supposed to be there, right? Otherwise the sentence doesn't make much sense. So I'll react as if there is no "not".
Patterns and trial strikes are two totally different categories. As said patterns are rare and expensive while trial strikes are still affordable. So I collect trial strikes but patterns are out of my league and I'm sure I'm not the only one. So giving "Trial strikes" its own type would be a very nice solution.
But I'm very convinced, for the majority of the members, giving patterns their own category, at the end of each country, still is the best solution.

Patterns may be rare and expensive, but so are many high-denomination precious metal coins. We still list them, of course. And while not many people would own any these, they are still needed for a complete catalogue.

And yes, that "not" in my statement should have been omitted. My apologies for that.

But if people would really prefer patterns and only patterns to appear at the end of the list, I imagine they may as well just use the filter. Either way, the patterns are hidden, but using the filter, the patterns still appear in a good place for those who want to see them. Now, I do understand your point about Trial strikes, so imagine we do get Trial strike as a new coin type: would you be alright with the filters then? With a distinction in types, the trial strikes could remain in place while the patterns disappear.

-----

And back to Exonumia types:

In Canada, there were a lot of "Local dollars"--coins that were legal in a specific area for a specific time (but were not notgelds--see here for more information). While not recognized by law, they were not limited to one type of transaction, so I cannot find a catagory they fit well into.

Perhaps we should have a cataogry: Trade tokens > Local token?

I am not sure how many countries used tokens like these; however, it seems they make up around 60% of Canada's miscellaneous tokens.

What about the exonumia line on the unknown coin page? (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces43609.html)
What will be done, keep it there or create an unknown token page?

Hi

I am not sure to which type I should rearrange some tokens which are truly specific, hence I propose new subtypes:

• Automatic tokens => Laundry tokens (used widely all across the globe)
  
• Ration tokens => Milk tokens (a whole lot of them from Canada and many hundreds from NZ)
  
• Ration tokens => Food vending machines tokens (a whole lot of them all across the globe) To which subgroup do the "food vending machines tokens" fit in? They are usually used with hot drinks vending machines.
  
• Miscellaneous token => Tool tokens (widely used at least in Yugoslavia)
  

Or is it better to leave all these pieces in "Miscellaneous token"?

Also fully support Sulfurs proposal on "Trade tokens > Local token". Here is one more example of such https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia170234.html.

In my opinion "Deposit tokens" should be exempted to as a main group/category of tokens/exonumia. These kind of tokens apart from all other "Automatic tokens" (where the deposit tokens currently sit) the customer receives back after its intended use. The rest are a kind of payment give-away tokens. There are at least two distinct groups of deposit tokens - "shopping cart tokens" (for shopping carts) and "restaurant tokens" (for cutlery). Mixing them all together is excessively odd (and nothing automatic about them either, no machine installed there to take the token away).

Regarding German pharmacy tokens. These are currently all added to "business tokens". This group is so distinct that it truly deserves its own sub-type "Pharmacy tokens" (*For comparison - were maybe "Brothel tokens" given an extra treatment? I see them also as business tokens ).

In viewing "My collection" tokens are separated only by the main group. Can please exonumia be split also further by sub-type? Currently only the general type is displayed in collection view, which makes it hard to check which ones are marked with "Miscellaneous token" and other wise - both wise for easier editing.

To some extent I am afraid that now we shall be editing thousands of tokens, medals and similar to specific (sometimes un-natural groups, due to the intended use of these pieces) only to afterwards regroup them again into more specific groups.

I may addup on this post.

LP

We have a group called "Lepper colony token". That should be "Leper colony token".

Quote: "Essor Prof"​So giving "Trial strikes" its own type would be a very nice solution.

There is also a suggestion for this in an old thread:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic93269.html

I think it's important that patterns and trials are separated, and less important if patterns go to exonumia or stay in coins.

For me, patterns mixed with coins are not a problem. I think a digital catalogue is fundamentally different from a printed catalogue. We can already filter coins by type, which is a much better solution than putting them automatically at the end like in a book. I am with Sulfur on this. More sorting options would be even better.

Quote: "Sulfur"​I know I am most definitely in the minority here, but I am actually going to be sad to see this happen. [...] we will be hiding a bit of history [...]

I was thinking about this too and I also see it as a drawback. Also splitting patterns from trials is not perfect. But I hope that with a well-organised exonumia section and a good link between coins and patterns, this won't be such a big issue.

Quote: "Sulfur"​I understand that the patterns never technically circulated; however, they were still issued by the government as a 'maybe', and they did have an intended value on them

This is where I see a big advantage of listing patterns separately, in exonumia. This would allow all patterns, including those issued privately and those without a face value to be listed together. I see this as more important than listing trials and patterns together. Otherwise, these patterns would go to... fantasy coins maybe? Which would be even worse in my view.

Quote: "mikimaus"Ration tokens => Milk tokens (a whole lot of them from Canada and many hundreds from NZ)

If these were used with the company that delivered the milk, they should be in "business tokens". If they were indeed for milk rations, they can go in "food rations". But note that ration tokens are "Compulsory for certain restricted or rationalised products or goods, in order to control personal allowances.".

Quote: "mikimaus"Ration tokens => Food vending machines tokens

Definitely not in "Ration tokens". See my comment above. Ration tokens were used during the war for example, when people were only allowed to buy a strictly limited amount of food or gas per month. Supplementary to the cash they had to pay, they had to give a ration token or voucher card.

I had a category called "Dispenser tokens" for vending machines for drinks, food, and cigarettes. I don't know why Xavier didn't add it, maybe there is a different plan for these.

Quote: "mikimaus"Miscellaneous token => Tool tokens (widely used at least in Yugoslavia)
Or is it better to leave all these pieces in "Miscellaneous token"?

I am not fully familiar with what these were used for, but I suspect they were "Deposit tokens".

Quote: "mikimaus"These kind of tokens apart from all other "Automatic tokens"

I agree "Automatic tokens" has some shortcomings. Apuking also pointed out that some transit tokens were not "automatic". I proposed back then to rename this to "Automatic and access tokens" or something similar. This would better cover all transit tokens and these deposit tokens for tools.

Quote: "mikimaus"Regarding German pharmacy tokens.[...] This group is so distinct that it truly deserves its own sub-type

I think a better system would be to have an issuing entity field where we could specify the name and type of business. A bit like a ruling authority field.

Quote: "mikimaus"For comparison - were maybe "Brothel tokens" given an extra treatment?

I also have some doubts about "brothel tokens" and agree they would probably work in "business tokens", except for the ancient Spintriae. I think these predate the modern concept of "business".

Quote: "Sulfur"Perhaps we should have a cataogry: Trade tokens > Local token?

I have some doubts about the name "Local token". Most exonumia items were local. The issuer will say the name of the municipality that issued them and that should describe exactly how "local" they were.
I also think these Trade tokens fit well in "Business tokens" or "Chamber of commerce tokens". They were accepted by local businesses and the town hall according to our Numisdoc. I could see some renaming here in the lines of "Local government tokens" / "Non-governmental tokens" / "Business tokens"

Best regards
strato

Quote: "stratocaster"​

Quote: "mikimaus"Regarding German pharmacy tokens.[...] This group is so distinct that it truly deserves its own sub-type

​I think a better system would be to have an issuing entity field where we could specify the name and type of business. A bit like a ruling authority field.

​That would definitely add to better layout, diminishing the need to open new subgroups.
LP

Quote: "Xavier"​Hello,
​
​I plan to create a separate section for tokens and exonumia this year, similar to the section for coins and the section for banknotes.
​
​This way we could have the tokens/medals/etc. with a country and a type (similar to commemorative, NCLT, essais, etc.) assigned correctly, instead of mis-using the currency field.
​
​Hopefully this will help increasing the quality of that section of the catalogue. And if you don't collect telephone tokens for instance, it would be easy to filter them out.

​Usine à gaz.....

Hello.
As far as I know, military awards have never been accepted in the catalog. Now the policy has changed and military awards are allowed?
Award medals - Military award

Quote: "Cyrillius"​As far as I know, military awards have never been accepted in the catalog. Now the policy has changed and military awards are allowed?

​I think military orders and decorations (the enameled ones with a ribbon, like this one) should still not be added.

But I was not aware that we don't accept military medals. There are quite a few already:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia191784.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia156116.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia156115.html

Quote: "stratocaster"​
​I had a category called "Dispenser tokens" for vending machines for drinks, food, and cigarettes. I don't know why Xavier didn't add it, maybe there is a different plan for these.

I forgot to add it initially. It's added now.
​

Quote: "stratocaster"

Quote: "Sulfur"​I know I am most definitely in the minority here, but I am actually going to be sad to see this happen. [...] we will be hiding a bit of history [...]

I was thinking about this too and I also see it as a drawback. Also splitting patterns from trials is not perfect. But I hope that with a well-organised exonumia section and a good link between coins and patterns, this won't be such a big issue.

There is a lot of potential for organization now, but no matter how organized the Exonumia section is, I think moving patterns there would still hide them. While links are great, I personally prefer to link the circulating coin to the pattern's page, but not the patterns to the circulating coin pages--the "See also" links would be very crowded if I did otherwise, specifically with Chinese coins (because there are a lot of patterns for that country).

But more importantly: even if we were to link patterns to the circulating coins pages, some patterns are completely unique, and there would be no good pages to include their "See also" links on. Going back to China, this would be the case with the Shanghai Tael, the Kwanping Tael, the Peking Tael, and the Mei--even with links, these only-pattern currencies would be hidden in Exonumia.

The only way I can imagine not hiding these pieces is to keep them in the Coin section. Of course, we would still have to work on the organization within the Coin section to better display these pieces there.

Quote: "stratocaster"

Quote: "Sulfur"​I understand that the patterns never technically circulated; however, they were still issued by the government as a 'maybe', and they did have an intended value on them

​ This is where I see a big advantage of listing patterns separately, in exonumia. This would allow all patterns, including those issued privately and those without a face value to be listed together. I see this as more important than listing trials and patterns together. Otherwise, these patterns would go to... fantasy coins maybe? Which would be even worse in my view.

​I am unable to view your second link. I am not sure if it is a problem on my side, so I will try again later.

For private patterns, I would assume it would depend on whether or not the government had anything to do with the making of said patterns (be it a comission they did not go through with or perhaps a gift the government recognized as an offical pattern). If the government had absolutely nothing to do with the patterns, then I do not think we could call those patterns--they would be fantasies.

And for those without a face value... if the government issued them that way, I guess that is how they were issued. I would love to see the link because I have not heard of such a thing, but if there was possibly an indended value (or one assumed based on its size), perhaps that could be of some relevance.

And so I do not really see this as an advantage to listing them in Exonumia--a pattern issued or commissioned by the government is just as valid as non-circulating coinage, as far as I can see.

Quote: "stratocaster"​I have some doubts about the name "Local token". Most exonumia items were local. The issuer will say the name of the municipality that issued them and that should describe exactly how "local" they were.
​I also think these Trade tokens fit well in "Business tokens" or "Chamber of commerce tokens". They were accepted by local businesses and the town hall according to our Numisdoc. I could see some renaming here in the lines of "Local government tokens" / "Non-governmental tokens" / "Business tokens"

"Local token" is definitely generic--I can agree with that. I just could not think of something better to use because their use is just as generic as their name.

However, ​I would not agree with calling these Business tokens--when I think of the term 'business tokens', I think of tokens made for one type of business (for example: Canadian Tire tokens). But these specific "Local trade tokens" (or whatever they are to be called) were valid for the entire city--not just for one type of business. And I think that distinction is important here.

With that being said, I would be alright with "Local government tokens"--that describes the situation well, I think (although not so much the "Non-governmental tokens" as there was a local government that would have approved these).

Quote: "Sulfur"I am unable to view your second link. I am not sure if it is a problem on my side, so I will try again later.

I suppose the page is down. I added some to Numista too a while ago, and couldn't find them before due to the move. Just some examples: p1, p2, p3, p4.

Quote: "Sulfur"For private patterns, I would assume it would depend on whether or not the government had anything to do with the making of said patterns [...] And for those without a face value... if the government issued them that way, I guess that is how they were issued.

I am not sure what you mean by "issued". To whom are patterns issued?

I also do not agree that the government needs to be involved for something to be considered a pattern. You are talking about some very specific types of patterns that are commissioned by a government. But patterns can be made independently by the designer, engraver, planchet maker, mint, minting press maker, alloy supplier, etc. Maybe the mint wants to check the quality of the planchets for example. The government isn't really involved at all. And more importantly, it is often impossible to know who commissioned the pattern and who made it, even by checking serious references. What do we do then?

And some more examples that I think don't fit in coins for various reasons:

• Not known if private or government is involved:
⸰ this pattern is listed as "2 franc-sized" by auction houses. It is made by the engraver using a press from the Federal Mint (is this private?), and Richter clearly says that the intended face value and purpose are unknown.

• No face value:
⸰ Italy 1900-1946
⸰ Italy 1974
⸰ Milan 1946
⸰ Farrukhabad

• Very experimental:
⸰ Pattern from the planchet producer
⸰ Royal Mint alloy test

• Unknown country:
⸰ UK or Australia

• Unclassifiable in coins:
⸰ Penny-sized, 1933
⸰ Clearly a mint pattern, but unclassifiable in coins
⸰ Italy / Russia mint mule
⸰ mint tokens

I think it is important that all patterns stay together. But I find it really hard to see some of these experimental pieces in coins.

That being said, I would like to also suggest a small reorganisation of the Patterns in exonumia:

- Minting patterns (or metal patterns?)
--- Coin pattern
--- Exonumia pattern
--- Mint token
this is to include medal and token patterns such as these.

I am not quite clear why this migration does not allocate pages to new categories according to their "currency"? For example, "automatic tokens" go to "Dispenser token" (instead "Miscellaneous token").
For example https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia123427.html

Quote: "Cyrillius"​I am not quite clear why this migration does not allocate pages to new categories according to their "currency"? For example, "automatic tokens" go to "Dispenser token" (instead "Miscellaneous token").
​For example https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia123427.html

​The migration was based in the currency. For "automatic tokens", I chose to migrate to "miscellaneous tokens" because this dummy currency is used by many kinds of tokens, not only dispenser tokens. Some examples of game tokens: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia130773.html, https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia116441.html
If you find some rules based on the currency or any other field, I'm happy to change the type automatically.

Quote: "Sulfur"​With that being said, I would be alright with "Local government tokens"--that describes the situation well, I think (although not so much the "Non-governmental tokens" as there was a local government that would have approved these).

​Hi
I believe "Local administration tokens" "sounds" better.
LP

This explains why I couldn’t find some of the tokens I was searching for!

A pop up or something obvious to inform people of the change might be wise.

I came here to post a bug report 😂

(not sure I like the change, on first glance. Though I understand why it has been split off)

It’s just for the convenience (in my opinion) and it’s easier to search for coins and of course tokens you want to log on to the database.

In my opinion it would take time for the tokens to be moved and weeks to sort out manually any mistakes and bugs in the new catalog.

Quote: "stratocaster"​I also do not agree that the government needs to be involved for something to be considered a pattern. You are talking about some very specific types of patterns that are commissioned by a government. But patterns can be made independently by the designer, engraver, planchet maker, mint, minting press maker, alloy supplier, etc. Maybe the mint wants to check the quality of the planchets for example. The government isn't really involved at all. And more importantly, it is often impossible to know who commissioned the pattern and who made it, even by checking serious references. What do we do then?
​

​What I was try to get at was basically Niue's situation with non-circulating coins: these are made by many people in many places of the world, but not every single one is official. And while it can be difficult to determine which are official and which are not (and I have had to move quite a few to Exonumia after they were proven to be non-official pieces), the distinction is still important.
​

Quote: "stratocaster"​I think it is important that all patterns stay together. But I find it really hard to see some of these experimental pieces in coins.

​Those are some very good examples you found; however, I think the fact that you found so many oddities shows that there are definitely different types of "patterns"--and if there are different types, that means we can list them in different places.

And I see listing every single type of pattern in the same place as less important than listing every type of pattern of the same pattern type in the same place.

From what I have seen of your examples, they can be sorted into:

• Patterns
  
• Unoffical patterns(?)
  
• Experimental patterns
  
• Mules
  

Experimental patterns would belong in Exonumia--those seem to be comparible to ATM test notes, whose purpose was 'testing'. However, I would be weary about even calling these "Experimental patterns". Perhaps "Experimental dies" would be more accurate (which is the exact wording used on your penny-sized example)?
- This would include everything under "Very experimental", "Unknow country", and examples 1 and 4 under "Unclassifiable in coins".

Mules are a whole other monster, but these are examples 2 and 3 of your "Unclassifiable in coins". Right now, we list mules under coins; however, there are some very questionable examples that are mules of coins from two different countries, like your examples are. I think we would need to first figure out what to do with mules before we can figure out what to do with these pieces.

For patterns without face values, they seem close to actual patterns to me; however, if they do not have a face value, they technically do not have a currency, and if no currency, that means they are more Exonumia-like (like an Exonumia pattern, as you put it). This could mean that they go to Exonumia, or this could be that they are listed under the Coin section with a currency something along the lines of "Non-denominated patterns". Arguments could go either way, and either one works for me as long as all from this catagory are in the same place.

And for Unofficial patterns, this would relate back to the statement I made about Niue. I would still call these fantasies; however, this catagory could be called "Uncertain patterns" instead. If it is uncertain whether the pattern is official or a fantasy, we could list it there. Or, we can do what we seem to do for Niue or Niue-like countries and say "pattern until proven fantasy" (as long as we make sure to include detailed explainations in the comments section).

Quote: "mikimaus"​​​Hi
​I believe "Local administration tokens" "sounds" better.
​LP

​And I would also be alright with that.

"Local administration token" is now available as type for exonumia.

If you need new referees to support I can support for Telephone tokens

Quote: "Xavier"​"Local administration token" is now available as type for exonumia.

​Excellent! I moved this example to the new section:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia170234.html

But with Canada having over 1000 needing to be moved, I will make a request for the Robot to do those ones in another thread.

The standard picture on pictureless pages of the paper Exonumia appears as circles, rather than rectangles. I am not sure how easy this would be to fit, but it would look a lot nicer if they were rectangles.

In the Exonumia section:
Commemorative medals

Achievement medal
Company medal
Event medal
Historical medal
Inauguration medal
Institution medal
Military medal
Personality or portrait medal
Religious medal
Satirical medal
Society medal

can
Coronation medal
Royal medal

both be added - for where it is neither Inauguration nor Religious.

Quote: "ZacUK"​can
​Coronation medal
​Royal medal
​
​both be added - for where it is neither Inauguration nor Religious.

​I think Royal medals fit in personality/portrait medals. I don't think we should start adding headings for every type of personality (royal, imperial, ducal, princely, presidential, comital, etc.).

For coronation: if it is something like "the 1000th anniversary of the coronation of Charlemagne" - then it fits in historical medals. If it is a contemporary coronation, then portrait medal. These usually celebrate some kind of life event (birth, death, wedding, baptism, return, visit, election, recovery, etc.), and again, I don't think we should have level 2 headings for all these.

Could we add "Play Money" under paper exonumia?

Quote: "Some_Nerd"​Could we add "Play Money" under paper exonumia?

​Are you taking about play money such as Monoploy money?

I wonder if the catalog really won anything because of the reduction in the number of categories for tokens? If earlier many (if not all) complained that this section is a "trash can", then what, with the reduction of existing categories, it has become more convenient? Were there really good reasons to remove the token categories (where it was already sorted) and mix the pages in the enlarged categories? Well, it's done, I'm not asking for an answer, but I should have said it, because I don't see an objective reason.

Quote: "Cyrillius"​I wonder if the catalog really won anything because of the reduction in the number of categories for tokens? If earlier many (if not all) complained that this section is a "trash can", then what, with the reduction of existing categories, it has become more convenient? Were there really good reasons to remove the token categories (where it was already sorted) and mix the pages in the enlarged categories? Well, it's done, I'm not asking for an answer, but I should have said it, because I don't see an objective reason.

The total number of categories actually increased with the new structure, although in some cases they are less specific than the previous categories. With the previous structure, we used the currency to store the issuer, and sometimes the type of token and/or the currency. With the new structure, we use 3 different fields for that:

• Type: what are these items used for?
  
• Issuer: for which country were these items these items made?
  
• Currency: if the token claims a monetary value, in which currency is it denominated?
  

I'm really open to create more types if needed. Especially, I feel that the type "business token" may be too large. I'll open a separate topic to discuss that. Feel free to suggest other changes.

Without knowledge of the robot's current situation, the current situation is:

TOP 5
Autres jetons 27 551
Médaille de souvenir touristique 6 865
Monnaie de fantaisie 5 819
Jeton de commerce 4 051
Médaille publicitaire 3 104

DOWN
Jeton de colonie de lépreux 0
Jeton d'école 0
Jeton de carburant 0
Récompense scientifique 0
Médaille satirique 0
Faux billet d'époque 0
Essai de billet 0
Certificat de change 0

It looks like this thread will be the place to express my pain. I apologize in advance to everyone.
I have always been in favor of the multi-level system for Exonumia, since the introduction of levels in Numista. I am sure that many interested members have suggested similar things before.


But to mix the already sorted categories? How many hours and days how many people were mixed now?
Unclassified exonumia - Miscellaneous tokens - 25450 pages. But some of this has its own category.
I have been looking at this for several days and cannot bring myself to start doing something.
I would like to look, for example, at the referee of a country with a lot of pages, Switzerland or Rome, for example, if at some point the currencies in these countries mix.
Sorry.

I support the improvements being made in the token section. I see three pages of United States Hard Times tokens (1832-1844). I think the best way to list these is by their Rulau numbers (HT #). Almost all of the tokens I see have their HT # listed. The tokens are now randomly listed, and it takes a lot of time to go through the pages to see if a token is listed yet. It would be very nice to just have them rearranged sequentially by HT #. If there is some way I would be able to help with doing this, I'd be glad to.

If HT is their main reference just sort by reference then you will get the order you want.
LINK

Many thanks! It works nicely. I was not aware of this capability. Numista is a fantastic site!