Haken Kreuz and not swastika [solved]

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Hi All,

I would hereby request you to change the description of the coins that bears the "Haken Kreuz" that nazis used in their coins of Germany under Nazi rule. It is not the Swastika hindu symbol that was used.

You can get more details about it from this documentary, https://youtu.be/YxvBFytl5aE

This is in Hindi, but has English subtitles. I have sent the same request to the Numista referee of Germany as well.

Thanks in advance!

Regards...
Sujit
“A man without a hobby is only half alive.”
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Is your issue with the word "swastika" to describe the Nazi symbol?
It is the globally-accepted name for it and I'm not aware of another one.
There are countless words for such symbols because every culture that weaves knows it.

Wan (Chinese), manji (Japanese), gyung-drung (Tibetan), "whirling logs" (an American Indian language), sólarhvél / Sonnenrad "sun wheel" (old Nors / German), Hakenkreuz "hooked cross" (German), gammadion, fylfot "four foot" (old English) or tetraskelion "four leg" similar to the triscelion.

But I don't know if you can change the English and French speakers that fast to use a different word.
Regardless of technical correctness, the term "swastika" is the widely accepted term among English speakers and writers (both popular and academic) outside of South Asia. Unless there is a wider cultural/linguistic shift towards the term "Haken Kreuz," using that term here would likely only cause confusion. It is unfortunate that an ancient symbol with a wide presence in human history has been so intrinsically bound to one of the most repugnant examples of human hate, but to cleanse the symbol of these associations (especially in a European/American context) strikes me as a near-impossible undertaking within any of our lifetimes.

I would also caution you on using this particular documentary as your supporting evidence in favor of such a shift. The credits at the end consist of a majority of Sangh Parivar supporters. That doesn't necessarily negate the argument being made or the authority of those involved, but it does indicate a specific political/ideological position behind this particular documentary. Evidence from a less overtly political source might better support your argument.
I agree with @sujit_kumar !

The Nazis at this time didn't use the term 'swastika' but only 'Hakenkreuz'
The Nazis also didn't use the term "Nazi" and yet we know exactly what that word refers to.
p


hmmm...
Thank you everyone for your attention towards this matter!

I know it is not easy to change people's perspective all of a sudden, but we can always start and see how far we can go. Atleast it is a good step towards correcting historical errors.

Here is a comparison of these two symbols side by side.



Kind Regards...
Sujit
“A man without a hobby is only half alive.”
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Here's another angle to this issue.

Many people, at least in the US, are not aware of the origins of the Nazi symbol, and would likely not notice that it is different from the original swastika. Attribute this to low quality education in the US, or anything else you like, but I've seen people confuse the symbols more than once. That said, I think it is irrelevant what you call it.

To take back the symbol dear to you from the hate-filled meaning most people are more aware of, the symbol itself needs to be popularized. Perhaps if it's present more in the western culture in its original form, over time it can regain its peaceful meaning. I think right now, the original swastika is only present on eastern design patterns, which most people in the west are not exposed to. So whenever they see a cross with hooks, their mind immediately goes to the Nazi cross.
ps
The Nazi symbol will always be called a Swastika as far as I am concerned no matter what it was called before or anywhere else. My AU2 cents worth.

Mike
Referee for Australia & New Zealand Coins & Exonumia, Papua New Guinea & Cocos & Keeling Islands.
I Collect > Australia, UK & Dependancies, NZ Sets, USA & Euros plus Misc Exonumia.
At present the swastika is used in a finnish order



Liberty cross
Does that mean we all have to use German words for everything? I understand the religious issue but I think most people are knowledgeable and sophisticated enough to avoid confusing the two. The term Swastika, the word and the symbol (bent right or left) was used on tons of good luck medals in the US before the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) was ever thought of. I'll continue using the word because everyone knows what I'm referring to, while Haken Kreuz will leave a lot of people scratching their heads. It's a very expressive symbol and I love finding them on coins from all over the world including ancient coins. It is too bad that the NSDAP gave it such a sinister character.
Moneta
The "Hakenkreuz" is called "croix gammée" in French which is a literal traduction of the German word and means "hooked cross" or maybe "cross with hooks" which makes it quite obvious why the English speakers borrowed the Hindu-word.
Ma collection de Révolutionnaires - My coins from the French Revolution
It is the same in Hungarian. Horogkereszt is the hooked crest. And a swastika is a swastika.

To name the Hakenkreuz swastika is a negation of the essentials. Just because the HK looks like a swastika it must not be a swastika.
There are some insects looking like bees but they aren't bees, and we don't name them bees.
Quote: "maudry"​The "Hakenkreuz" is called "croix gammée" in French which is a literal traduction of the German word and means "hooked cross" or maybe "cross with hooks" which makes it quite obvious why the English speakers borrowed the Hindu-word.
​True. I agree 100%
“A man without a hobby is only half alive.”
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Status changed to Solved (sujit_kumar, 15-Jan-2022, 08:04PM)
The swastika is a symbol with many styles and meanings and can be found in many cultures. The Hindu swastika Sujit showed is only one of the many. Here is one of the oldest swastikas found:


Swastika seals from the Indus Valley Civilisation preserved at the British Museum


A 3,200-year-old swastika necklace excavated from Marlik, Gilan province, northern Iran


Goa Lawah Hindu temple entrance in Bali, Indonesia


All these swastikas have an identical shape as the swastika the Nazis used. Calling one a swastika but not the other doesn't seem right.

The picture below displays it very well (although in German):



The German word "Hakenkreuz" has two meanings:
1. Any isosceles cross with four arms pointing in the same direction, bent at right angles, acute-angled or rounded.
2. Swastika as a symbol of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

Which means (like the story about the insect and the bee): every "Hakenkreuz" is a swastika but not every swastika is a symbol of the Nazis.

The French translation for "Hakenkreuz" is also "svastika":



And the English translation for "croix grammée" is also "swastika":



I understand completely it's not nice to see a holy symbol be abused by the Nazis, but that doesn't mean we can change a language. The English word for "Hakenkreuz" is swastika, not "hooked cross" or "cross with hooks". The Nazis gave the symbol swastika a very bad taste but I'm sure every right-minded person can see through that and knows that symbol is much more than only the Nazi symbol.
Even before the founding of NSDAP, the word "swastika" was used on English language to denote not only motifs found on Hindu and Buddhist traditions, but similar motifs found all around the world. For examples, here's the word being used to discuss North American native art in 1896.

I don't know if the existence of a similar word derived from Sanskrit "स्वस्तिक" (svástika) was popular in German during the Hitler's lifetime. If not, it would explain why he himself never used this word.

Hitler seems to have chosen the symbol due to its presence in Germanic ancient art. In fact, in one of Hitler's manuscript in 1920, we can read "Die heiligen Zeichen der Germanen. Eines dieser Zeichen sollte von uns wieder erhoben werden." (in free translation, "The sacred signs of the Germans. One of these signs should be raised up by us again.").

Edit: Languages are not immutable. I wouldn't be opposed to use a more suitable term if it became popular. I have many books of heraldry, but they seem to disagree in regards to its name.
I don't think anyone has mentioned the swastika turn the other way round, as in this good luck token.

In French, croix gammée is, I think, derived from the name of the Greek letter Γ = gamma.
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Quote: "Camerinvs"​I don't think anyone has mentioned the swastika turn the other way round
​I haven't mention it because the swastika turned the other way round has it's own name: a sauwastika. Although mostly, both left-facing sauwastika and right-facing swastika are just called swastika.

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