Alterations needed to one of the Ruling Authorities of Finland. [solved]

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This message aims at: requesting the creation or the modification of a ruling authority

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Finland was a Grand Duchy, not a Grand Principality 

[https://finland.fi/life-society/main-outlines-of-finnish-history/]. 

 

Czarist titles tended to be rather long. The title of Czar Nicholas II of Russia included the phrase: “Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland”[https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nicholas_II_of_Russia].

 

I have never come across Finland being referred to as a ‘Grand Principality’, other than on Numista, except on this wikpedia page:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Declaration_of_Independence], 

which links to this wikipedia page 

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland], 

which by referring to Finland as the Grand Duchy of Finland contradicts the first wikipedia page. 

 

I therefore suggest the changing of the ruling Authority from ‘Grand Principality of Finland’ to ‘Grand Duchy of Finland’.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

The Grand Duchy of Finland (Finnish: Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta; Swedish: Storfurstendömet Finland; Russian: Великое княжество Финляндское, Velikoye knyazhestvo Finlyandskoye, all of which literally translate as Grand Principality of Finland)

 

This is what your second wiki link says. Still, I believe the former is better. I just amended it.

Catalogue administrator
Status changed to Done (Jarcek, 8-Jun-2022, 08:37)

Looks good.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

How can the wrong translation be better? Duke in Finnish is herttua, not ruhtinas, so it's always called the grand principality in Finland. Just because it's a common mistake in English doesn't mean it stops being a mistake. By all means allow the search function to find the grand principality when “grand duchy” is entered but let's get it right. 

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Here's another website that gets the translation right:

http://www.archontology.org/nations/finland/00_1809_1917_s.php

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

A literal translation is not always necessarily correct in colloquial everyday usage.

 

If you ask google to translate ‘grand duchy of Finland’, it gives ‘Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta’ - the in use term. However, ‘grand duchy of Luxembourg’ is translated as ‘Luxemburgin suurherttuakunta’, (!) probably because there is a Grand Duke. 


This is actually a very interesting question. Why has Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta always been interpreted in English language as ‘grand duchy of Finland’.

 

A grand principality requires a Prince, which was not in place in the case of Finland. The Czar styled his title on a Swedish notion. Kings of Sweden, Czars of Russia, but never a Prince or a Duke of Finland. 

What’s a Finn to do! 

Did the Czar take the title of Duke of Finland? Must look that up sometime…

 

I lived in Finland in the 1990s. I have a knowledge of the language. Most of my Finnish friends and acquaintances are fluent in English. Any occasion, either numismatic or otherwise, when the status of Finland under Russian rule came up (not a common topic of conversation), in English they refereed to it as the Grand Duchy of Finland. In over thirty years of exposure to Finnishness, I have not ever heard the phrase Grand Principality used in reference to Finland.

 

In my experience, the term ‘Grand Duchy’ is used officially in Finland to describe the era.

Finnish Numismatic catalogues also use the term Grand Duchy [Holmasto, Finland Coins and Banknotes, for example], referring to the Russian Czar as the ‘reigning Grand Duke’.

 

Anyway, as none of us here are Finns, I shall ask…, 
…  The reply [texting here] was ‘Grand Duchy’.


I therefore cite historical and everyday usage of the term as a reason for ‘Grand Duchy of Finland’ to be used on Numista.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

Actually, I am a Finn, born in Finland + 60 years ago. History on the other hand is not my strongest area but I do know that we were “Suuriruhtinaskunta” and Czar Nikolai for example was a Grand Duke of Finland. The name Grand Duke comes from Sweden actually. The concept of the Grand Duchy of Finland had already emerged in the 16th century, largely because the title of King of Sweden from 1577 also included the title of the Grand Duke of Finland. 

 

So my opinion is that Grand Duchy of Finland is correct.

If you've heard the term Suuriruhtinaskunta, you've heard Grand Prince since that's what it means. You rightly say that the title came from Sweden, where it is Storfurste. Again, that's Grand Prince, not Grand Duke (which would be Storhertig). At no time has the title Grand Duke been used in Finland except when speaking in a foreign language. The fact that a different term is used for the Luxembourg Grand Duke surely seals it? Why it was mistranslated into English is unclear but this website gives one theory.

 

Common confusion over the polity name ("grand principality" versus "grand duchy") stems from the fact that the title initially introduced was that of a "duke" (Hertig til Finland); "duchy" being the regular designation of a region within the Swedish kingdom), whereas subsequently and still in the 19th century the title used was that of "grand prince" (Storfurste till Finland, in Russian Velikiy knyaz'). The style of the polity should therefore be correctly rendered as "Grand Principality".

 

Just because a lot of people get something wrong doesn't mean we should follow their mistake. We can all see what the correct term is and we should use it.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

'Grand Duchy of Finland' is correct for the period from 1809 to 1917.

 

Prior to 1809, Finland was part of the Kingdom of Sweden.

 

Aidan.

Please look at the link I posted in my previous message. Finland was a Grand Principality from 1577.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Imho, it doesn’t matter why Suuriruhtinaskunta was not literally translated into English. What is relevant it the English term that is in use by the vast majority. Almost everyone uses ‘Grand Duchy of Finland’.

 

Consider this:

Hyvä in Finnish essentially translates as ‘good’ or on its own ‘Ok’.
Suomi is Finland.
Put them together and you need to translate colloquially, ‘Hyvä Suomi!’ as ‘Go Finland!’ - not as ‘good Finland’, a popular chant at sporting events.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

Useful link btw.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

Glad you liked the link. I've found that website very helpful.

However, you do accept that the majority are wrong on this, don't you? That's why the other websites ignore them and get it right. The question is whether or not Numista should propagate a mistake? I'm all for allowing the common but incorrect term to be findable in searches. That way those who don't know the correct term can learn. After all, a catalogue should be educational.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

We will agree to differ on this one. History isn't my strong point.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

The question isn't whether we agree or not. We had the correct term, now we have the incorrect term.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

I don't know who is right and who is wrong but we haven't been grand principality either in Finnish or English language. On our official documentation we are Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta in Finnish and grand-duchy in English according to the web site of Suomen Eduskunta (eduskunta.fi) and the Parliament of Finland in english. That is based on the fact that Finland was an eastern province of the Kingdom of Sweden for more than 600 years, until it was annexed to Russia as an autonomous grand-duchy at the Diet of Porvoo in 1809.

 

During the Swedish period, Finland was merely a group of provinces and not a national entity. It was governed from Stockholm, the capital of the Finnish provinces at that time. But when Finland was joined to Russia in 1809 it became an autonomous Grand Duchy. The Grand Duke was the Russian Emperor, whose representative in Finland was the Governor General.

Sorry but that simply isn't correct. All the terms in Swedish, Finnish and Russian mean Grand Principality. It's a shame the correct English translation isn't used very frequently but we simply can't use the incorrect term and ignore the mistake.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

My opinion is that the main issue is not incorrect translation, the issue is history itself. As far as I know all the Romanov titles have been translated as grand duke and grand duchess not because of incorrect translation but because of some sort of power/ruling issues.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by “power/ruling issues”. Is it that Grand Prince was though to sound less important than Grand Duke?

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

I have read from somewhere (probably history of Romanov) that the title Prince was reserved for some other family and that's why they started to use Dukes. I think I have to ask that issue from my neighbour who is an expert of Romanovs. 

ceh2019

The question isn't whether we agree or not. We had the correct term, now we have the incorrect term.

In my experience the term Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta is correct.

 

You are applying a literal interpretation of the exact meaning of the phrase Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta when its components are translated into English. The phrase ‘Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta’ needs to be considered as an entity, not as a collection of components. Finnish is a language of compound nouns, many of them far more complex than suuriruhtinaskunta, and some quite untranslatable without a knowledge of the language.

 

I think that the term used by the Finnish government should be considered to be correct.

Irish banknotes: https://www.irishpapermoney.com - Finnish BanknotesPolish Banknotes

I agree that the term needs to be considered as an entity but that doesn't change what it means, no matter how complex the Finnish language might be. There is no way “Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta” can be translated to “Grand Duchy of Finland” if that term is not used for the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Luxemburgin suurherttuakunta). We must also remember that, when this title came into use, it was a Swedish-language title, so the meaning in that language should really take precedence.

We're talking about a state that no longer exists. If a country's government decides a particular term should be used for it today then we use that that term but that can't be applied retrospectively. Sadly, the Finnish government has followed an incorrect convention and used the wrong translation.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

ceh2019

There is no way “Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta” can be translated to “Grand Duchy of Finland”

Well, “ruhtinaskunta” means principality, so maybe Grand Principality of Finland would be a better name in English?

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ngdawa

ceh2019

There is no way “Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta” can be translated to “Grand Duchy of Finland”

Well, “ruhtinaskunta” means principality, so maybe Grand Principality of Finland would be a better name in English?

 

 

The Czars of Russia from 1809 were Grand Dukes of Finland, not Grand Princes, I am afraid.

 

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

ngdawa

ceh2019

There is no way “Suomen suuriruhtinaskunta” can be translated to “Grand Duchy of Finland”

Well, “ruhtinaskunta” means principality, so maybe Grand Principality of Finland would be a better name in English?

 

 

The Czars of Russia from 1809 were Grand Dukes of Finland, not Grand Princes, I am afraid.

 

Aidan.

What evidence do you have for that statement? The Russian, Finnish and Swedish names all mean Grand Prince.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

Read this;

 

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/ScandinaviaFinland.htm .

 

Aidan.

I'm afraid this falls into the same category as the Finnish government website cited arlier. At no point do they mention the actual title, they just repeat an earlier mistake in the translation. That doesn't stop it being a mistake. Unless you can prove that Finland was refered to using the terms Suurherttuakunta, Storhertig or Великий Герцог, we have to follow the correct translation of Suuriruhtinaskunta, Storfurste and Великий Князь, the terms we know to have been used. The evidence is clear.

Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.

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