ISIS/Islamic State/Daesh coins added

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Hello everyone. 

 

I just added some missing Islamic State coins to the catalog. Interestingly, it seems that two versions of the gold 1 dinar circulated. One is very similar to the non precious metal series that didn't circulate.

 

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339956.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339950.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339953.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339954.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339955.html
 

I would appreciate it if any experts on Islamic State coins would take a look and make sure there are no errors. Also, I didn't know the diameter and thickness of these. So anyone with this knowledge, please add it.

 

Finally, I'm still looking for an example of any of the circulation coins from an ethical source. Any help in that area would be most appreciated.

 

Thank you,
Lever

You are entering a very slippery road, now….

...you can run,  but you can't hide...

yvon

You are entering a very slippery road, now….

*grabs popcorn*

 

 

lever

Interestingly, it seems that two versions of the gold 1 dinar circulated

If some/all of these circulated, why are they labeled as “fantasy”? Is it because IS was not a recognized country?

lever

 Also, I didn't know the diameter and thickness of these. 

 

Finally, I'm still looking for an example of any of the circulation coins from an ethical source. 

Translate where the mint was:  https://www.e15.cz/zahranicni/turkum-se-podarilo-zabavit-raznice-na-vyrobu-minci-islamskeho-statu-1234626

 Turkum-managed-to-confiscate-stamps-for-the-coin-production-of-the-Islamic-State!

These are the second tokens from this workshop designed to enrich small groups of criminals, The original ones are made in China and sent to criminals along with the dies.  ,, Therefore, there are two kinds of advertising tokens from an unknown country,,

Ivan 

MIMAEL

 

 criminals

 

Although I fully understand where you're coming from, and agree with your original (before edit) comment's indignation, I am certain that Romans, Mongols, and many other empires throughout history did much worse. They won, so there was nobody left to call out their war crimes, genocides, and other transgressions, but still many are well documented. And yet here we are… collecting and droning over their coins like it's something to be admired. 

Kopeika

MIMAEL

 

 criminals

 

Although I fully understand where you're coming from, and agree with your original (before edit) comment's indignation, I am certain that Romans, Mongols, and many other empires throughout history did much worse. They won, so there was nobody left to call out their war crimes, genocides, and other transgressions, but still many are well documented. And yet here we are… collecting and droning over their coins like it's something to be admired. 

I fully agree with this here, and what about the Americans in Vietnam, Iraq and many more?

 Not to mention how they dealed with the native Indians….And still their coins are collected…

...you can run,  but you can't hide...

Are there any proof that these coins actually was released into circulation?

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yvon

 

I fully agree with this here, and what about the Americans in Vietnam, Iraq and many more?

 Not to mention how they dealed with the native Indians….And still their coins are collected…

 

American coins might actually be controversial to collect if Europe hadn't beaten us to the punch with a century of invasion money, ghetto tokens, POW and concentration camp issues, and colonial coinage all the way up to the 1960s.  Nobody thinks twice about the hypocrisy of Lady Liberty on US coins because at least she's not a swastika.

 

Cataloging, even collecting something, isn't an endorsement of its issuer.  If funding terrorism or questions of legal ownership are a concern then disallow swaps of ISIS coins until it's sufficiently ancient history.  As a collector of conflict currency I am glad to see these catalogued on Numista, though I myself will probably never own them for the exact reason that I don't know how to buy them ethically.  A soldier who brought them home as a legitimate trophy of war and has provenance to prove it perhaps, but that sounds awfully expensive and like something that goes in a museum.

lever

Hello everyone. 

 

I just added some missing Islamic State coins to the catalog. Interestingly, it seems that two versions of the gold 1 dinar circulated. One is very similar to the non precious metal series that didn't circulate.

 

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339956.html

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339950.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339953.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339954.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia339955.html
 

I would appreciate it if any experts on Islamic State coins would take a look and make sure there are no errors. Also, I didn't know the diameter and thickness of these. So anyone with this knowledge, please add it.

 

Finally, I'm still looking for an example of any of the circulation coins from an ethical source. Any help in that area would be most appreciated.

 

Thank you,
Lever

Cursed gold I see…💀💰

Numista's Unofficial Soccer Maniac! ⚽

Not to mention the atroicities commited by the Dutch while building and expanding their colonial empire. Yet people still collect Netherland empire coins.

ngdawa

Are there any proof that these coins actually was released into circulation?

If you look at the coins cataloged by Numista you'll see there are two distinct series. There are the ones that were made of all base metals for collectors by someone (rumored to be in China), and then there is the copper, silver, gold series that circulated somewhat in Daesh controlled regions, especially in Raqqah and towards Deir ez Zur along the Euphrates. The “Chinese” issues were based on renderings of the proposed currency released by Daesh before production actually started. All the examples I'd seen pictures of that were captured in former Daesh controlled areas were different to these renderings, except two examples of gold one dinar coins. It seems that while the copper and silver were used in markets for a while for every day goods, the gold was mostly used for dowries and for storing wealth.

I had just written and article for my coin club and to see about sending into a magazine to publish on the ISIS coins. out of the coins that you have put up there is only a few missing. of the Phase one and Phase two coins. Also the meanings of the coins are absent from the pages, i would want OP's permission before adding them. The Meanings are explained in the original video releases in 2015 titled “Rise of the Khalifate and the Return of the Gold Dinar”  Also the coins did indeed circulate in side of ISIS territory as that during one of their english language newsreels, titled “Inside the Khalifa” they show agents of the the Hisbah speaking to shop keepers. The Hisbah were ISIS's police force with the mission of “forbidding Evil and enjoying Good” among the people. In the newsreel it shows shops with signs that declare that only the ISIS's coins are accepted. In the newsreel it shows them being used for transactions inside of Raqqa.   As far as the missing denominations i would like OP's permission to amend Numista's catalogue. Also another poster stated that they may have come from China. This is unclear as minting equipment was smuggled in from Italy, however the phase two dies have not been recovered. The Phase one dies were captured by Turkish police.  Also Prof. Jerome Jambu studied the ISIS coins and stated that they were of a billion consistency, some gold and silver mixed with other metals.   

ngdawa

Are there any proof that these coins actually was released into circulation?

Yes there is, in the newsreel “Inside the Khalifa” it shows them in circulation in shops and other documents captured from the Diwa Al Jayash  or the Bureau Of the Military dictates the wages for fighters to be paid for success in combat.  Below are pictures from the Newsreel

 

        

harryg

Not to mention the atroicities commited by the Dutch while building and expanding their colonial empire. Yet people still collect Netherland empire coins.

Yes, 100% true. A very shamefull part of our history.

...you can run,  but you can't hide...

lever

ngdawa

Are there any proof that these coins actually was released into circulation?

If you look at the coins cataloged by Numista you'll see there are two distinct series. There are the ones that were made of all base metals for collectors by someone (rumored to be in China), and then there is the copper, silver, gold series that circulated somewhat in Daesh controlled regions, especially in Raqqah and towards Deir ez Zur along the Euphrates. The “Chinese” issues were based on renderings of the proposed currency released by Daesh before production actually started. All the examples I'd seen pictures of that were captured in former Daesh controlled areas were different to these renderings, except two examples of gold one dinar coins. It seems that while the copper and silver were used in markets for a while for every day goods, the gold was mostly used for dowries and for storing wealth.

Mahalo, that was very useful information!

I remember I've read about how they found a mint in Turkey, but they wasn't sure if any cokns from there had really been issued. I've also seen various types of proposed coins, but no real source that coins actually did circulate. I'm yet still suspiscious towards these stories that “My _____ is/knows a soldier who brought these coins back”. I think these coins will need a few more years before I feel comfortable enough to even look at them.

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Ad Tokens will never, I repeat never become circulating coins !  You can show a thousand times the taken over reports (all newspapers and media took over and edited them in their own creative way) from 2015 of somebody's propaganda.

But, unfortunately, it is not possible to historically prove the fact even now.

Who paid for the dies and the first 5000 or so gold and silver coins, copper makers in China? ( from the money from the crude oil being exported to Turkey)

Who's son lived there in Italy and had profits from the sale of oil? and Why did you buy embossing presses in Italy?

Production machines were brought to Syria -however, a few of the main insiders understood that it was better to do business on their own and transported the machines to the territory of Turkey. Production for the great interest of (sick fanatical) people in the world.

The dies are the only ones made in China. 

He is actually aware of the nonsense of the claim that - "a pressing machine bought in Italy was smuggled" -It is bought and transported legally, there is nothing illegal and that is the difference.

 

Yes, advertising tokens of non-existent countries are and exist and are also authorized to be on our website , and I have nothing against their existence (I have a circulating coin,, Khmer Republic,, -and they were definitely bigger.…..)

As long as the son's father is where he is, it will never be explained how it really was. 

 

I mint my own coins and I'm from an unknown country -and every stamp (always has a story)

However, it is important to separate propaganda, lies, fabrications and the bare fact. Yes, sometimes it takes time to find the facts and it's up to the historians.

However, the supporters and ... will still push their point.
The claim of "numist", country of origin is false.   And please put the stories of soldiers and doctors selling tokens at exorbitant prices between the bottom halves. 

Regarding the last question - yes, they were also minted in Turkey near the border from Syria until the machines were seized by the police , but the biggest part was from China and they were never, never in circulation only gold and silver you can pay at the toilet in Manhattan.

Ivan

ngdawa

lever

ngdawa

Are there any proof that these coins actually was released into circulation?

If you look at the coins cataloged by Numista you'll see there are two distinct series. There are the ones that were made of all base metals for collectors by someone (rumored to be in China), and then there is the copper, silver, gold series that circulated somewhat in Daesh controlled regions, especially in Raqqah and towards Deir ez Zur along the Euphrates. The “Chinese” issues were based on renderings of the proposed currency released by Daesh before production actually started. All the examples I'd seen pictures of that were captured in former Daesh controlled areas were different to these renderings, except two examples of gold one dinar coins. It seems that while the copper and silver were used in markets for a while for every day goods, the gold was mostly used for dowries and for storing wealth.

Mahalo, that was very useful information!

I remember I've read about how they found a mint in Turkey, but they wasn't sure if any cokns from there had really been issued. I've also seen various types of proposed coins, but no real source that coins actually did circulate. I'm yet still suspiscious towards these stories that “My _____ is/knows a soldier who brought these coins back”. I think these coins will need a few more years before I feel comfortable enough to even look at them.

Here is a well researched article on the topic i used this as well as other sources for my own research. A large amount it seems were melted down by locals in Raqqa to turn a quick profit after liberation. https://english.religion.info/2018/12/23/the-return-of-the-gold-dinar-an-analysis-of-the-islamic-state-coin-production/ 

This is definitely going to be a controversial opinion. But I think they're mislabeled if there in the exonumia category. They should, instead, be in the “states with limited recognition tag”. Transnitria also does not have recognition from any UN recognized countries, so it's not without precedence.

The reason I'm saying they should be in this category is that ISIS declared themselves as a caliphate. Caliphates are states in the traditional sense of the word.

“… traditional definition of states in international law which regards an entity as a state if it possesses “(a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with other states.”4”

https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/iiclr/pdf/vol12p25.pdf (page 1, para. 2)

ISIS had a permanent population (albeit an unwilling one).

ISIS had a defined territory.

ISIS had a government.

And ISIS could have entered into relations with another state if another state were willing.

With all this being said, I can certainly understand not listing ISIS as a country for any number of reasons.

userchap

This is definitely going to be a controversial opinion. But I think they're mislabeled if there in the exonumia category. They should, instead, be in the “states with limited recognition tag”. Transnitria also does not have recognition from any UN recognized countries, so it's not without precedence.

The reason I'm saying they should be in this category is that ISIS declared themselves as a caliphate. Caliphates are states in the traditional sense of the word.

“… traditional definition of states in international law which regards an entity as a state if it possesses “(a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with other states.”4”

https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/iiclr/pdf/vol12p25.pdf (page 1, para. 2)

ISIS had a permanent population (albeit an unwilling one).

ISIS had a defined territory.

ISIS had a government.

And ISIS could have entered into relations with another state if another state were willing.

With all this being said, I can certainly understand not listing ISIS as a country for any number of reasons.

 

I.S.I.L. are terrorists - plain & simple!

 

Terrorist outfits can't put out coins!

 

Those tokens should be under ‘Exonumia’ anyway!

 

There is nothing remotely Islamic at all about Al-Qaeda, I.S.I.L., & the Taliban anyway!

 

Aidan.

BCNumismatics

 

I.S.I.L. are terrorists - plain & simple!

My intention wasn't to say otherwise. I'm just an international relations nerd interested in technicalities. 

userchap

This is definitely going to be a controversial opinion. But I think they're mislabeled if there in the exonumia category. They should, instead, be in the “states with limited recognition tag”. Transnitria also does not have recognition from any UN recognized countries, so it's not without precedence.

The reason I'm saying they should be in this category is that ISIS declared themselves as a caliphate. Caliphates are states in the traditional sense of the word.

“… traditional definition of states in international law which regards an entity as a state if it possesses “(a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with other states.”4”

https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/iiclr/pdf/vol12p25.pdf (page 1, para. 2)

ISIS had a permanent population (albeit an unwilling one).

ISIS had a defined territory.

ISIS had a government.

And ISIS could have entered into relations with another state if another state were willing.

With all this being said, I can certainly understand not listing ISIS as a country for any number of reasons.

The Islamic State clearly functioned as a country for a short time, and those coins that circulated are coins. However, this opinion isn't of great importance to me, or, I expect, to most of us who hold it. While for many of those who insist that these are not coins seem to see it as a moral issue, and to admit that these are coins is somehow to support the Islamic State. So it seems to have them in the exonumia section is a way to placate their outrage. Furthermore, there are other inconsistencies in the catalog. For example, why are 19th century Australian tokens in the exonumia section, while 19th century Canadian tokens are in the coin section? Why are Litzmannstadt tokens under Poland and not Germany? I imagine for some of these issues there was a debate about it, and for some they were just placed where they were by whoever first made their entries. 

I believe that tjr main problem with ISIS/ISIL voinage is that it's still too current. It hasn't even been a decade yet since their terror.

 

If we give it 20 years or so, they would, without a second thought, be placed in the main catalogue next to Third Reich, Belgian Congo, Apartheid South Africa, and all Colonial coins.

 

It sure is controversial, but at the same time we must not confuse numismatics with politic and religious views. This is something for the Numista Team to take a vote on.

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ngdawa

I believe that tjr main problem with ISIS/ISIL voinage is that it's still too current. It hasn't even been a decade yet since their terror.

 

If we give it 20 years or so, they would, without a second thought, be placed in the main catalogue next to Third Reich, Belgian Congo, Apartheid South Africa, and all Colonial coins.

 

It sure is controversial, but at the same time we must not confuse numismatics with politic and religious views. This is something for the Numista Team to take a vote on.

Agree with you. From numismatic point of view  they should be in main catalog. But not now because its to fresh, it need time 10,20 or more years. Like German Nazi Ghetto coins, its part of our history and we must remember that such coins exists.  Ghetto coins should never be issued but they were. Same here with ISIS coins, they should never exists but they were. They are part of our history we should remember, to make sure it will never happen again.  

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