It is not that a coin is compulsory made out of metal isn't? There are also coins from porcelain, plastic and more non-metals, so why not paper or cardboard?
Just to add another reason to consider them coins. I have both 1915 Lille round “banknotes” and guess what … they have coin alignment (which is not mentioned on the page as all banknotes are supposed to be medal alignment 😉 )
Would be the first banknotes to have the back flipped over …
So except the material it all yells coin-coin-coin (design, shape, alignment) … it's even made to fit in a coin flip 😄
EDIT:
these notgeld (all seem to be some kind of emergency currency) are spread over both sections, no uniformity
Most of these meet two of your three criteria as banknotes, being rectangular and having medal alignment. They are mostly made of metal, but we have silver and gold foil banknotes listed. The point being, shape is irrelevant to classification, and alignment is no more conclusive. Realistically it appears the line is being drawn based on rigidity; coins/tokens are almost all impossible to fold without destroying the piece, while even silver banknotes could be made into origami and leave only creases. WWII cardboard ration tokens are too thick to fold without destruction, for example. Are these notgeld that thick and rigid? That would be the real criteria to me, if they really are that bulky then maybe they are “coin-like" tokens.
Personally I think the problem is neatly solved by placing notgeld in Exonumia. We have a bunch of what amounts to souvenir tokens produced by private companies with a meaningless denomination, intended for collectors from the beginning, and a minority that were true “emergency money” but were generally not official issues either. Ironically I have exonumia that circulated as money and notgeld “banknotes” that are really non-monetary propaganda leaflets.
numiscorner says : Conformity This item is certified authentic following the expertise of two recognized numismatic experts. Our team carries out nearly 100,000 numismatic expertises each year for private individuals, professionals and administrations. Our company was founded in 1977 and we are members of the main international numismatic organisations (ANS n°11680, ANA n°3175551, ANS, IBNS n°11418, PMG n°3721, PCGS n°1048758, NGC n°3721)
it is a round shaped banknote! others are hexagonal in shape, all departments and regions of France have had different banknotes! I am French I know these banknotes, I give you an answer, it does not matter ..…
but 2009 out of the 2047 are NCLT "coins" … so there is more than one reason to not take these as the norm if you look at the 36 circulating ones, most do end up looking somewhat like coins but only slightly more rectangular …
Outsider
Realistically it appears the line is being drawn based on rigidity; coins/tokens are almost all impossible to fold without destroying the piece, while even silver banknotes could be made into origami and leave only creases. WWII cardboard ration tokens are too thick to fold without destruction, for example. Are these notgeld that thick and rigid? That would be the real criteria to me, if they really are that bulky then maybe they are “coin-like" tokens.
These are indeed printed on hard cardboard … will not try to bend them, as it will destroy them more heavily than with folded medieval coins
Outsider
Personally I think the problem is neatly solved by placing notgeld in Exonumia.
Hiding them in exonumia solves nothing as also there we make a distinction between token-like and banknote-like, eg. dimensions and such. Will we be adding orientation to banknotes too?
Just call me Bram
Oh! And do read my profile page before you open a swap ...
it is a round shaped banknote! others are hexagonal in shape, all departments and regions of France have had different banknotes! I am French I know these banknotes, I give you an answer, it does not matter ..…
Do you have other sources then this book ? What says Gadoury ? Monnaies de nécessité françaises 1990 ?
Search by yourself the French catalogs of "necessity money" I will not spend the evening repeating the thing 1000 times! even Numista France confirms it, it's a banknote!!!
Hiding them in exonumia solves nothing as also there we make a distinction between token-like and banknote-like, eg. dimensions and such. Will we be adding orientation to banknotes too?
Why do we have an Exonumia tab if everyone regards it as a trash dump? Lots of things that were used as real money and issued by governments or banks, and are highly esteemed by most collectors, are in Exonumia; I don't understand this Coin > Banknote > Exonumia hierarchy that seems to guide the discussion. In any case, no change would have to be made to the entry wherever we listed it; it already contains accurate information, shape, diameter, and all. You could add orientation to this but it's trivia, I don't know of anything, even a coin, where orientation is treated as an identifying trait.
I don't know what circulating status has to do with classification as coin or banknote, there's NCLT in both, but doesn't this reinforce the comparison? Most non-metal European notgeld never circulated and were made for the collector market, and like NCLT, novelties and unorthodox designs were often introduced to drum up interest. Miniassegni is a good example of what paper circulating in place of small change looks like - completely utilitarian, and obviously worn to the bone by everyday use.
if you look at the 36 circulating ones, most do end up looking somewhat like coins but only slightly more rectangular …
If you look at the “round banknotes” or “paper coins” or whatever, they end up looking somewhat like banknotes but only slightly rounder.
Search by yourself the French catalogs of "necessity money" I will not spend the evening repeating the thing 1000 times! even Numista France confirms it, it's a banknote!!!
hello, for other countries it is surely different, for France banknotes like yours are banknotes, you have trouble understanding, I give up...…
I understand your point of view but there are quite few thing s that make me feel something is wrong. As i mention in other post.
We have ie 10 catalogs saying that cardboard coin are coin and 1 catalog say its a banknote. So who is right ? Even at your end, this is not so sure. Cgb.fr says its banknote numiscorner its a coin. Ma-shops says its a coin and at the same time its a banknote. Maybe this one catalog you provide is correct and rest 10 are wrong, i dont know, what i know is that we need to clarify what to do in numista catalog. One way or another. You cant have a cookie and eat the cookie.
Andre, do you have this catalog you are referring to ? Why this one is so special and treat as note while others are treated as coin ? What requirement have numista to consider cardboard coin to be a coin not a banknote ? What gadoury notgeld catalog says about this case ? Do you have such catalog ? I just need more data to understand.
If it's flexible and out of fibrous material we put it under banknotes even if it imitates the shape of a coin, if is rigid and out of metal we but it under coin even if it imitates a banknote.
If it's flexible and out of fibrous material we put it under banknotes even if it imitates the shape of a coin, if is rigid and out of metal we but it under coin even if it imitates a banknote.
that make sens to me.
So, could you tell me which of this coins should be in banknote section ?
I believe that this issue should not be addressed by analyzing whether they really are cardboard coins or circular banknotes, but rather in a practical way and taking into account the classification that has historically been made of these pieces.
In the case of the pieces belonging to the Spanish Notgeld - Civil War period, they have always been classified and assumed as circular banknotes in all the specialized catalogs of the time and for all the collectors of these pieces.
If you look for these circular pieces on all Spanish numismatic auction and sale websites, they are always in the category "Civil War municipal banknotes"
In addition, in many cases, the rectangular format was used for the highest values and the round format for the lowest values in many municipalities, so if we consider round banknotes as coins, many series of municipalities will be divided into two different sections. . I think this would be a mistake.
Only my opinion ;)
Coin referee for: Andorra
Banknote referee for: Spain and Andorra
I believe that this issue should not be addressed by analyzing whether they really are cardboard coins or circular banknotes, but rather in a practical way and taking into account the classification that has historically been made of these pieces.
In the case of the pieces belonging to the Spanish Notgeld - Civil War period, they have always been classified and assumed as circular banknotes in all the specialized catalogs of the time and for all the collectors of these pieces.
If you look for these circular pieces on all Spanish numismatic auction and sale websites, they are always in the category "Civil War municipal banknotes"
In addition, in many cases, the rectangular format was used for the highest values and the round format for the lowest values in many municipalities, so if we consider round banknotes as coins, many series of municipalities will be divided into two different sections. . I think this would be a mistake.
Only my opinion ;)
I agree with you. we need to look at it more broadly. From the perspective of all catalogs and not just one of France. Now I know that in Spain it's also banknotes. Okay, so why are they in coins? How is it in Belgium? and in other countries that also have round note/coins?
I think the difference between banknotes and coins is easy maybe; coins are struck (what means with some kind of relief) where banknotes are printed with ink.
I think the difference between banknotes and coins is easy maybe; coins are struck (what means with some kinde of relief) where banknotes are printed with ink.
this make sense to me. So this looks like printed and should be moved to the banknote section :
I think the difference between banknotes and coins is easy maybe; coins are struck (what means with some kinde of relief) where banknotes are printed with ink.
this make sense to me. So this looks like printed and should be moved to the banknote section :
I think from this link you provided, the Belgian-notgeld and the German+ Spanish ‘stamp-coins’ are printed, so yes banknotes maybe. But is still a bit tricky… The others (from this link) are coins, without doubt, because struck or pressed.
I think the difference between banknotes and coins is easy maybe; coins are struck (what means with some kinde of relief) where banknotes are printed with ink.
this make sense to me. So this looks like printed and should be moved to the banknote section :
I think from this link you provided, the Belgian-notgeld and the German+ Spanish ‘stamp-coins’ are printed, so yes banknotes maybe. But is still a bit tricky… The others (from this link) are coins, without doubt, because struck or pressed.
agree, printed to the banknote section rest stay as it is.
I believe that this issue should not be addressed by analyzing whether they really are cardboard coins or circular banknotes, but rather in a practical way and taking into account the classification that has historically been made of these pieces.
In the case of the pieces belonging to the Spanish Notgeld - Civil War period, they have always been classified and assumed as circular banknotes in all the specialized catalogs of the time and for all the collectors of these pieces.
If you look for these circular pieces on all Spanish numismatic auction and sale websites, they are always in the category "Civil War municipal banknotes"
In addition, in many cases, the rectangular format was used for the highest values and the round format for the lowest values in many municipalities, so if we consider round banknotes as coins, many series of municipalities will be divided into two different sections. . I think this would be a mistake.
Only my opinion ;)
I agree with you. we need to look at it more broadly. From the perspective of all catalogs and not just one of France. Now I know that in Spain it's also banknotes. Okay, so why are they in coins? How is it in Belgium? and in other countries that also have round note/coins?
I don't have a specific notgeld catalogue for Belgium, but the cardboard coins from Gent are put between all the metallic notgeld coins from that period (Aernout, 2022 - referenced here). The numista pages even mention the reason for them being out of cardboard : “lack of metal”. So in that period coins went from proper metal to zinc to cardboard …
The catalogue also includes the other Belgian cardboard item from Luigne we have in our catalogue and still missing items from Mouscron/Moeskroen. Only one reference from Belgium, as I don't have a reference for our emergency paper money, but in this catalogue
