Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 25-Jul-2013, 17:31
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013, 17:31
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I`ve purchased a 1960 South African 2 1/2 shillings proof coin.
How would a person know that it is actually proof?
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 25-Jul-2013, 18:52
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Posted: 25-Jul-2013, 18:52
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Let's see some photos, from there we can tell.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
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15turtles
Joined: 26-Mar-2012
Posts: 1129
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 03:57
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 03:57
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Look for marks, if there are too many, it may be cleaned or treated (common case in Chinese markets)
also, if it is cameo, there should be a obvious contrast between the "mirror" area and the "frosted" area
University is time consuming, cherish your free time!
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 14:25
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 14:25
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Here it is obverse & reverse...
monéphil
Joined: 3-Jan-2011
Posts: 13897
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 14:38
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 14:38
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This coin isn't proof, it's just UNC... Or maybe cleaned
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 15:22
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 15:22
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Quote: monéphilThis coin isn't proof, it's just UNC... Or maybe cleaned
So how do you know it`s proof or not?
That is the question...
monéphil
Joined: 3-Jan-2011
Posts: 13897
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 17:33
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 17:33
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I haven't the vocabulary to explain it correctly in English, but I'll try.
The reliefs are frosted, and the rest (where it is blank) is as a mirror.
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 18:16
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 18:16
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Quote: monéphilI haven't the vocabulary to explain it correctly in English, but I'll try.
The reliefs are frosted, and the rest (where it is blank) is as a mirror.
Merci!
Any additional info I can source?
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 20:40
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 20:40
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The words that Monephil has are perfect.
In English we call the mirror part "cameo" but we also use "mirror-y". To me, your coin looks cleaned, but it's really hard to tell.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
torontokuba
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 1255
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 21:40
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 21:40
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Quote: SmartOneKgIn English we call the mirror part "cameo" but we also use "mirror-y".
Really? I thought "cameo" refers to the portrait or effigy.
QuoteThe cameo portrait, (often just called the "cameo"), has a frosted, matte finish that stands out in sharp contrast to the highly-polished, shiny surface of the field.
http://coins.about.com/od/coinsglossary/ss/coinanatomy_6.htm
Try "field" or surface or background...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anXKnXVm-Kc
Mark240590
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 5612
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:18
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:18
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I'm sorry but this really is a proof mirror like finish to the rear is a proof sims have the images frosted to stand out some dont.
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:43
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:43
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Quote: torontokubaI thought "cameo" refers to the portrait or effigy.
I think you're right.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
torontokuba
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 1255
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:44
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:44
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You're right
Mark240590, both types exist. It's hard to tell with such tiny photos, I know
this is possible...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixrlPYcRvjM
ZuluRaptorSpace
Joined: 3-Jun-2013
Posts: 1628
Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:48
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013, 22:48
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Quote: WernerQuote: monéphilI haven't the vocabulary to explain it correctly in English, but I'll try.
The reliefs are frosted, and the rest (where it is blank) is as a mirror.
Merci!
Any additional info I can source?
Salut, ca va?
tony_k_1965
Joined: 8-Nov-2011
Posts: 1690
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 08:25
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 08:25
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It's a proof, and also you would know a cameo if you seen one as they are very different, the cameo is when the portrait, design does not have a mirror finish but the rest of the coin does, it sort of gives it a super imposed effect just like a cameo brooch or ring.
monéphil
Joined: 3-Jan-2011
Posts: 13897
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 09:24
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 09:24
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As it, it's a BUNC coin, not a proof.
A proof have cameo reliefs, and without it it isn't a proof coin.
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 10:06
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 10:06
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O.k, I understand the cameo part of the coin, but is this not with the new coins of today? Nowadays most proof are cameo/frosted. Remember this coin is from 1960. I don't think they made the proof coins cameo/frosted.
manxcat12
Joined: 14-Jul-2012
Posts: 1004
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 10:22
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 10:22
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A proof is, or at least should be, defined as a coin struck from specially prepared dies, made by polishing or otherwise treating the dies (and, of course, not intended for circulation). There are a load of the older proofs, possibly this one, that are polished allover, ranging to examples like the E VII R coronation issues in 1902, that are entirely matt finish. I would personally consider the coin pictured a proof, due to the reflective surfaces that you would never see on a circulation strike. No expert, though.
Catalogue referee for British, English and Scottish coins.
Le référent pour des pièces britannique, anglais et écossais.
torontokuba
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 1255
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 14:39
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 14:39
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Quote: monéphilAs it, it's a BUNC coin, not a proof.
A proof have cameo reliefs, and without it it isn't a proof coin.
No, I think the popularity of the frosting and mirror contrasts took off in the 70's. Earlier proofs were often entirely one mirror finish. You can still get those today on some small gold coins.
QuoteThe dies for making modern proof coins are often treated with chemicals to make certain parts of the design take on a frosted appearance, with the polished fields taking on a mirror finish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_coinage
The proof crowns before 1953 should all be without a frosted relief. After, I'm not sure, they could have varied from year to year?
QuoteOften the proof coin images will have frosted relief against a mirror finish background. Some of the early years however are all mirror finish with no frosting.
http://www.brushwood.mintrasystems.com/proof.php
monéphil
Joined: 3-Jan-2011
Posts: 13897
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:03
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:03
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Ah! I understand now, the proof process change and so the definition also.
I were wrong so...
torontokuba
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 1255
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:09
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:09
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It's called evolution, terminology and marketing. It often changes with time and varies from mint to mint.
glorkar
Joined: 23-Mar-2013
Posts: 1023
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:11
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 15:11
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I've always wondered about proofs. I collect Cayman Island coins and there are quite a few 1 cent pieces that apparently were only available as proofs in certain years. They definitely look circulated though.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
ZuluRaptorSpace
Joined: 3-Jun-2013
Posts: 1628
Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 16:08
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013, 16:08
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Quote: SmartOneKgThe words that Monephil has are perfect.
In English we call the mirror part "cameo" but we also use "mirror-y". To me, your coin looks cleaned, but it's really hard to tell.
"Cameo" refers to the mirror. "Deep Mirror" and "Cameo" are the same.
tony_k_1965
Joined: 8-Nov-2011
Posts: 1690
Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 08:36
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Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 08:36
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Quote: ZuluRaptorSpaceQuote: SmartOneKgThe words that Monephil has are perfect.
In English we call the mirror part "cameo" but we also use "mirror-y". To me, your coin looks cleaned, but it's really hard to tell.
"Cameo" refers to the mirror. "Deep Mirror" and "Cameo" are the same.
This is incorrect as cameo refers to the image being frosted or matt finish and NOT the MIRROR finish. See link for more info
http://coins.about.com/od/coinsglossary/ss/coinanatomy_6.htm
torontokuba
Joined: 8-May-2011
Posts: 1255
Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 15:28
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Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 15:28
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Quote: tony_k_1965This is incorrect as cameo refers to the image being frosted or matt finish and NOT the MIRROR finish. see link for more info
http://coins.about.com/od/coinsglossary/ss/coinanatomy_6.htm
Let me help...
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 16:48
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Posted: 29-Jul-2013, 16:48
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Hi Everyone!
I just got some expertize by a coin dealer in Cape Town,
The coin is Proof!
Unfortunately it has slight marks on it, so even though it might have been proof, it`s not proof anymore?
ZuluRaptorSpace
Joined: 3-Jun-2013
Posts: 1628
Posted: 30-Jul-2013, 03:31
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Posted: 30-Jul-2013, 03:31
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Quote: WernerHi Everyone!
I just got some expertize by a coin dealer in Cape Town,
The coin is Proof!
Unfortunately it has slight marks on it, so even though it might have been proof, it`s not proof anymore?
Proof is not a grade.
It is a special way of a coin being minted.
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:00
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Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:00
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Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:05
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Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:05
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QuoteProof is not a grade.
It is a special way of a coin being minted.
Obviously, this is probably a coin dealers language! lol
Trying their luck to fool you...
glorkar
Joined: 23-Mar-2013
Posts: 1023
Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:37
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Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 17:37
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It actually makes sense. If a proof coin ends up in circulation, it can become scratched/worn. At that point, the actual grade of the coin drops, but it's still a proof.
"What we are is not as important as what we aren't"
Werner
Joined: 1-Mar-2012
Posts: 115
Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 18:06
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Posted: 8-Aug-2013, 18:06
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Quote: glorkarIt actually makes sense. If a proof coin ends up in circulation, it can become scratched/worn. At that point, the actual grade of the coin drops, but it's still a proof.
I doubt the coin was in circulation. definitely not. just not looked after/cleaned....
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