kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:40
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Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:40
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I noticed many currencies now have changed.
kopeks to kopejek..
etc..
What's the rule in naming currencies?
neilithic
Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Posts: 7493
Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:46
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Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:46
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What about country names, like Sao Tome and Principe in the Numista catalogue but in NGC is listed as "Saint Thomas and Prince Island" or Guyana/Guiana
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:47
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Posted: 4-Aug-2014, 23:47
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Ngc is not a good reference.
i would name it: Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe, that's the official name
Mark240590
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 5612
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 12:57
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 12:57
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Thing is. It should all be converted to English/ French really given these are the phonics of the site.
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 12:58
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 12:58
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I agree.
Same with kings names.
Mark240590
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 5612
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 13:33
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 13:33
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Yeah, I mean I'm all for using a countries name in their native tongue but things could get very confusing !
neilithic
Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Posts: 7493
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 13:44
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 13:44
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It's really got to be an all or nothing approach for consistency, either use the English/French name for all, or use native names for all.
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 19:13
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 19:13
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On English Numista: native tongue for both denominations and leaders
On French Numista: French tongue
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
neilithic
Joined: 28-Mar-2011
Posts: 7493
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 21:45
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 21:45
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Quote: SmartOneKgOn English Numista: native tongue for both denominations and leaders
If that was true we'd have countries like Danmark, Sverige, Suomi, Helvetica, Norge, etc
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 21:47
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Posted: 5-Aug-2014, 21:47
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Don't forget שקל חדש or شيقل جديد and the subdivision אגורות
Other thing: i saw some italian coins have Acmonital as metal, should we name it stainless steel?
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 6-Aug-2014, 21:38
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Posted: 6-Aug-2014, 21:38
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With countries we use UN country names.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 6-Aug-2014, 21:39
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Posted: 6-Aug-2014, 21:39
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We should stick to english, towards globalization and beyond.
nalaberong
Joined: 1-Oct-2013
Posts: 1425
Posted: 7-Aug-2014, 01:43
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Posted: 7-Aug-2014, 01:43
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I notice someone changed all the Arabic coins' names to be more accurate transliterations - was it imreh?
Good effort but at first I was confused
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 7-Aug-2014, 03:41
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Posted: 7-Aug-2014, 03:41
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Was me
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
KartWay
Joined: 31-Oct-2013
Posts: 1155
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 13:40
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 13:40
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I agree that countries names should be in english, the UN names as SmartOneKg said.
But as for currencies it should be the way it is now too.
Where possible keep the original name of currency, where not possible due to different alphabets used (such as for russian, arabic, etc) convert to the latin letters as accurately as possible.
Exactly as it is now. I don't think it would be good to call all Korun, Koruna, Kroon, Krona just with english word "Crown", because it is not the original name of these countries currency. Or if want it could be written Kroon / Crown to allow english translation, but definately not only english word.
I would keep it the way it is at moment.
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 13:41
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 13:41
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I will stick to wikipedia-english for countries names and currencies names.
smoked_caramel
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 1640
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 14:22
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 14:22
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Quote: kommodorei noticed many currencies now has changed. kopeks to kopejek..
Quote: KartWayWhere possible keep the original name of currency, where not possible due to different alphabets used (such as for russian, arabic, etc) convert to the latin letters as accurately as possible.
kommodore's example violates
KartWay's proposal right there. An English-speaking person would never be able to properly pronounce
kopejek as "j" needs to be pronounced as "dzh". In this particular case, I'd say it should be
kopeyek.
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 16:40
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 16:40
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Quote: nalaberongI notice someone changed all the Arabic coins' names to be more accurate transliterations - was it imreh?
I deny everything.
- I'd love to add the proper Arabic (i.e. with Arabic letters) description, but honestly my computer with proper keyboard and the right to left cursor has stayed in Ras Al Khaimah...
- without that it would be a major pain.
(try to type with inserting symbols backwords! ...)
Related to topic:
We need to cater the search function, think of that first, guys!
so:
1) Country name: proper UN English: yes
2) Currency name: English AND local, but local preferred! ... (EDIT: Kopejek is simply a WRONG transscribe, it shall be Kopeyek, and Kopeyki)
3) Ruler name: English AND local, but local preferred!
The English site is actually an international site, using English as a common
language, but by far not only serving
English natives.
Anyways, all of this purely philosophical, as nobody really gives a shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht.
smoked_caramel
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 1640
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 17:06
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 17:06
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imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 17:21
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 17:21
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Quote: smoked_caramelHere
Absolutely, gorgeous, and romantic for me... as mathemathical description of linguistics was my first profession.
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:15
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:15
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Quote: imrehAnyways, all of this purely philosophical, as nobody really gives a shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht.
Hahaa well it really is true isn't it. Look at French Numista, they weave in and out of French and native tongue.
With the translations made on certain coins, really this is the best I could do. It might be wise to remove the accents like many transliterations on Wiki, but they show longer vowels, accentuated Hs, etc.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:24
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:24
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Kenny, can you post me some links on your "criticized" Arabic transscripts?
I am more than happy to look into them,
arrigato gozaymas,
Imre
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:30
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 19:30
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Quote: neilithicQuote: SmartOneKgOn English Numista: native tongue for both denominations and leaders
If that was true we'd have countries like Danmark, Sverige, Suomi, Helvetica, Norge, etc
Guess who decodes them first?
1) Sakartvelo
2) Magyarország
3) Hrvatska
4) Vlachia
p.s. do not cheat: do not use google translate!
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 20:20
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 20:20
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Take a look at any country,
Syria for example. Did not use Google translate.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
nalaberong
Joined: 1-Oct-2013
Posts: 1425
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:20
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:20
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Quote: imrehQuote: neilithicQuote: SmartOneKgOn English Numista: native tongue for both denominations and leaders
If that was true we'd have countries like Danmark, Sverige, Suomi, Helvetica, Norge, etc
Guess who decodes them first?
1) Sakartvelo
2) Magyarország
3) Hrvatska
4) Vlachia
p.s. do not cheat: do not use google translate!
OK, OK...
1) ...Georgia?
2) Hungary!
3) Croatia
4) oh no
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:22
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:22
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It's called Țara Românească in Romanian and Wallachia in English
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:31
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:31
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How about this:
1) Countries-according to UN
2) All other (denomination, ruler...) native + English.
I found this very important. Here is why. For example:
If I found this coin and if this coin was my first coin from Syria, I would be like WTF???
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces17102.html
I found 2½ Qirushān Sūriyah. What does that mean??? And what should I do with this? When you write that in Google, no results will be found (only Numista pages). The same with Google translate. Also I go to NGC and I want to know the value of this coin. But wait a minute, there is no 2½ Qirushān Sūriyah.
Uops!!!! What now?
I hope you have understand I meant.
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:34
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 21:34
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Indeed, sticking only to english seems for me the only solution.
KennyG
Joined: 25-Apr-2010
Posts: 4857
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 22:16
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 22:16
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It means 2 Syrian Qirsh, in the "word form" box it should have an English translation, either in piastres or qirsh.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 23:05
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Posted: 8-Aug-2014, 23:05
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Quote: kommodoreIndeed, sticking only to english seems for me the only solution.
Agree. I don't see what was wrong with only English.
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 11:34
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Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 11:34
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Quote: SmartOneKgTake a look at any country, Syria for example. Did not use Google translate.
What I meant by local language, it should look like: "1 Piastre / غرش"
The transcription not just looks silly, but also doesn't help the Arab user to search his coin.
Your Ghirsh is pronounced as Qirsh or Qurush depending on the dialect, then your "2 Qirushan" is nonsense, as Qirushan is already in dual, meaning 2 Qirsh, 2 Qirushan is actually 4 Qirush, so kinda confusing ...
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 11:46
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Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 11:46
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Quote: KunaQuote: kommodoreIndeed, sticking only to english seems for me the only solution.
Agree. I don't see what was wrong with only English.
Regards
Kuna
Broaden your perspective, guys!
No German users will search for "Charles William" but "Karl Wilhelm", and nobody but Shakespeare addicts would call "Marcus Antonius" as "Mark Anthony", like the guy would have been your highschool-mate.
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 12:32
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Posted: 9-Aug-2014, 12:32
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We should renounce to silly local ambitions. Accept that English is worldwide( computers did it). Only then the world might really be better.
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 13-Aug-2014, 15:41
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Posted: 13-Aug-2014, 15:41
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Quote: imrehQuote: KunaQuote: kommodoreIndeed, sticking only to english seems for me the only solution.
Agree. I don't see what was wrong with only English.
Regards
Kuna
Broaden your perspective, guys!
No German users will search for "Charles William" but "Karl Wilhelm", and nobody but Shakespeare addicts would call "Marcus Antonius" as "Mark Anthony", like the guy would have been your highschool-mate.
I agree that rulers should be in native tongue but written in Latin letters.
I think that so far was written Karl Wilhelm and I don't see why did someone change that.
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 15-Aug-2014, 15:03
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Posted: 15-Aug-2014, 15:03
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very nice joke with 2 qirushan
I think it should be better to use currency names which are given here in the soft, when we adding coins to the Catalogue. Actually, when I try to transfer soft file to Exel, I see about 10 different currencies in same period of Egyptian coins
its not seriously, and I think moders must to do something with this.
thanks,
best regards
David
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 18-Aug-2014, 08:57
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Posted: 18-Aug-2014, 08:57
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For example, this is how my swap list looks right now. I don't think that anyone can read it.
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 2-Sep-2014, 00:55
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Posted: 2-Sep-2014, 00:55
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Please, I want to discus about this problem and solve it because I get annoyed every day cause of it.
As first, why is this part of Numista called international if it is English part? But that is not important. The main question is what was wrong with the names before these changes were made?
So, who agrees that we should make it as it was before? If not agree, explain why.
Thanks
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 2-Sep-2014, 01:22
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Posted: 2-Sep-2014, 01:22
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I agree. Use english names.
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 3-Sep-2014, 14:26
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Posted: 3-Sep-2014, 14:26
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Quote: KunaPlease, I want to discus about this problem and solve it because I get annoyed every day cause of it.
As first, why is this part of Numista called international if it is English part? But that is not important. The main question is what was wrong with the names before these changes were made?
So, who agrees that we should make it as it was before? If not agree, explain why.
Thanks
Regards
Kuna
ciscoins
Joined: 6-Apr-2013
Posts: 388
Posted: 6-Sep-2014, 18:35
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Posted: 6-Sep-2014, 18:35
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Quote: imreh2) Currency name: English AND local, but local preferred! ... (EDIT: Kopejek is simply a WRONG transscribe, it shall be Kopeyek, and Kopeyki)
"Kopeyek" is the plural form of the name. 1 - kopeyka, 2-4 - kopeyki, 5 and more - kopeyek.
(In Ukrainian - 1 - kopiyka, 2-4 - kopiyki, 5 and more - kopiyok)
But even this spelling is not correct. "E" in Russian is much softer than in English. And the unstressed "o" should be pronounced like "a". So it would be better to write "kap'eyka". (You can listen it here:
http://ru.forvo.com/search/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B0/)
Then... Each language has its own way of making plural forms. In English that is "s" at the end. And more correct variant of the plural form would be "kopeykas". Or "kapeykas". Or "kap'eykas". Or, to avoid the wrong pronounciation by Argentinians and some other peoples, "kap'eikas".
Or just leave "kopeks", that's a good international variant of the name.
pileborg
Joined: 8-Aug-2012
Posts: 179
Posted: 8-Sep-2014, 22:38
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Posted: 8-Sep-2014, 22:38
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Only English names would be confusing too. Currencies from countries with another alphabet tends to be translated, and those with Latin alphabet not. I never heard anyone talk about using Crowns in Sweden, Pounds in Italy or Lions in Romania. No, it's Krona, Lira and Leu. So for the sake of fairness and consistency I think local names should be used over all for currencies, along with an English name for making searches easier if a customary name exist .
Also I find it interesting to know what a coin is actually called where it is being used.
Country names is a different story. English only, or nobody will ever find anything ever again
I translate the names to Swedish anyway when I sort my collection - Ungern, Rumänien, Kroatien, Finland and Sverige!
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 19:27
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Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 19:27
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Quote: pileborgOnly English names would be confusing too. Currencies from countries with another alphabet tends to be translated, and those with Latin alphabet not. I never heard anyone talk about using Crowns in Sweden, Pounds in Italy or Lions in Romania. No, it's Krona, Lira and Leu. So for the sake of fairness and consistency I think local names should be used over all for currencies, along with an English name for making searches easier if a customary name exist .
Also I find it interesting to know what a coin is actually called where it is being used.
Country names is a different story. English only, or nobody will ever find anything ever again
I translate the names to Swedish anyway when I sort my collection - Ungern, Rumänien, Kroatien, Finland and Sverige!
Yes, I agree. But nobody wants only English. We want like it was before, like Leu, Lira...
Check my doubles. ;)
Dutchgalego
Joined: 25-Sep-2011
Posts: 1086
Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 21:49
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Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 21:49
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Quote: kommodoreNgc is not a good reference.
i would name it: Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe, that's the official name
The real name is: Républica democratica de São Tomé e Principe, I've been there before.
At school I learn that names shouldn't be translated, but everybody does it. So my country has names as Holland, Holanda, Olanda, Pays Bas, The Netherlands etc etc but I'm a Nederlander who lives in
Nederland.
Cents are money too!
kommodore
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 2966
Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 21:52
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Posted: 10-Sep-2014, 21:52
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Yes but i used the name in english, because otherwise People's Republic of China would then be 中华人民共和国
Sorxus
Joined: 18-Nov-2011
Posts: 182
Posted: 11-Sep-2014, 06:54
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Posted: 11-Sep-2014, 06:54
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Hehe, good one, kommodore...
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 11-Sep-2014, 08:09
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Posted: 11-Sep-2014, 08:09
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why we complicate everything? Moderators just must to convert all names into English names, like in KM# catalogue for example. Or, like in Oxford Dictionary (!!
) , but here all names are mix , and each of us upload names like we want to do it. Result - Girsh, Qirsh, Qurush, K`urush, Qirushan, Piastres, kopeyek kopeks, kopeek,and so on. Why we discuss very easy things? Who like to see Millemes, Millims, Milliemmes, Mallimat, Mallim Malima ? I like to see: 1 millem, 2,5,10, 20 millemes. but no Millimat, Mallimat etc..
Lets use MISR instead of Egypt, SAQARTVELO instead of Georgia, Rossiya instead of Russia, Suomi instead of Finland.. Nipon, Maghrib, Catalunya, and many other native names. Why? we have English here as a main language, and French side. It could be much easier to bring all names under one, common classification....
best
David
pnightingale
Joined: 27-Jul-2011
Posts: 5383
Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 06:36
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Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 06:36
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Quote: KennyGWas me
I hope for the sake of your soul and physical well being that you didn't just decide to do this without consulting widely with your peers. Those French folks really don't seem to like you.
I haven't felt the need to use the catalog for some time due to being engrossed with stamps plus it doesn't really work any more unless I'm logged out. I used it tonight to check on a couple of Islamic coins and to be frank (or franc, frankin, frankat, franka etc.) the changes are awful.
This was the first coin:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1821.html
It's a Five Piastre coin, it's always been a Five Piastre coin. If you are looking for one on eBay the category is Five Piastres, if you want to check the value on NGC it's Five Piastres, practically every reference terms it Five Piastres, every numismatist under the sun calls it a Five Piastres.
However Numista now terms it as Five Qurish, complete with accent over the "U".
So.... you can't cross reference with other websites, you can't find it on eBay, if you ask anyone about a Five Qurish they will give you a blank stare and it doesn't even match the denominations listed under the series heading! You can't even search for it unless you have memorised several hundred alt codes.
The next coin is even worse:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces10227.html
It's not a Mallim, they are not Mallimat. The are Millieme, plural Milliemes. Elsewhere Piastre and Piastres have been vandlised into Qirsh / Qirushan. How do I know that the original entries were correct? Well it says so right on the coin - "One Millieme".
If you are going down this route then why not use local alphabets? It would be narrowly correct in the same way as using a bewildering spread of local spellings translated loosely and inconsistently into English. Of course nobody will be able to make use of the site any more but at least it will be pedantically correct. It's a coin website not a venue for obscure linguistic anomalies to be displayed.
I can think of dozens of reasons why this is a terrible change all of which lead to the inevitable conclusion that Numista will become further marginalised and ignored because somebody thought it would be a good idea to fly in the face of convention.
Can anyone tell me one single positive benefit from these changes?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
radrick007
Joined: 7-Feb-2011
Posts: 2874
Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 08:42
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Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 08:42
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Once again, I am in complete agreement with the eminent Mr Nightingale. This whole currency name change is ludicrous and unneccessary and all the alterations should be reverted to the original convention.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
Coin catalogue referee for England, United Kingdom & pre-Union South Africa.
Banknote catalogue referee for England & United Kingdom.
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 10:27
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Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 10:27
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It's a Five Piastre coin, it's always been a Five Piastre coin. If you are looking for one on eBay the category is Five Piastres, if you want to check the value on NGC it's Five Piastres, practically every reference terms it Five Piastres, every numismatist under the sun calls it a Five Piastres.
However Numista now terms it as Five Qurish, complete with accent over the "U".
So.... you can't cross reference with other websites, you can't find it on eBay, if you ask anyone about a Five Qurish they will give you a blank stare and it doesn't even match the denominations listed under the series heading! You can't even search for it unless you have memorised several hundred alt codes.
The next coin is even worse:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces10227.html
It's not a Mallim, they are not Mallimat. The are Millieme, plural Milliemes. Elsewhere Piastre and Piastres have been vandlised into Qirsh / Qirushan. How do I know that the original entries were correct? Well it says so right on the coin - "One Millieme".
100% PHIL !
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 20:10
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Posted: 14-Sep-2014, 20:10
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OK. All of us (100 %) agreed. So now, the only thing we should do is to ask Kenny if he can make it like it was before or if it isn't possible, we should make many, many single change requests.
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 20:16
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 20:16
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KUNA
you are Numista` patriot !
respect !
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 20:48
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 20:48
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Quote: Dato MikeladzeKUNA
you are Numista` patriot !
respect !
Hahahahah. Thanks
Check my doubles. ;)
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 21:04
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 21:04
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Hmmm
Quite an intellectual discussion by now. I like this.
I do not like the fact that it will have no effect on the future here, but you all are aware of my "active disengagement" (to use my beloved management consulting term) towards Numista.
So to be precise in maths, I agree 87% with Phil, if we need a numerical standpoint here.
The discussion gets confused. Despite the title "currency names" we actually discuss 3 issues here:
1) Country names
Nobody with more than 3 braincells suggests that Hungary shall be called Magyarország or Ungern. Or that Sakartvelo shall replace Georgia(although I personally think it will clear things out for confused Americans
)
So country names shall be in proper Queen's English.
2) Ruler names
I trust that they shall be called under there original name AND English.
I think and I promote my own solution, like here:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces48226.html
The rational is simple: if we are - or hoping to be - a widely used numismatic reference, we'll soon end up having people who do not know enough English to discover who is who, so the locals need a reference to search for their own king or queen or whoever. I guess the above example serves the search engines well enough both for stupid illetarate Hungarian peasants as well the lucky owner from Ohio.
and if I may agree with myself, I'd like to qute an other example from myself
:
Quote: imrehNo German users will search for "Charles William" but "Karl Wilhelm", and nobody but Shakespeare addicts would call "Marcus Antonius" as "Mark Anthony", like the guy would have been your highschool-mate.
3) Currency names
As the original topic I agree with the principle of making it user friendly. 100%.
BUT who are the users to be friendly with?
To answer that first concentrate on the Latin alphabet!
(I answered thsi somewhere but I forgot, but still have a de ja vu...):
Search for
...a) "2 Zlote" Poland: you get 2 coins:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=&c=&cc=y&cn=y&ce=y&cu=y&cat=y&mode=avance&p=1&e=pologne&d=&km=&i=&v=2+zlote&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&g=
...b) "2 Złote" Poland: you get 269 coins!!!! :
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?r=&c=&cc=y&cn=y&ce=y&cu=y&cat=y&mode=avance&p=1&e=pologne&d=&km=&i=&v=2+Z%26%23322%3Bote&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&g=
Now, here is the "userfriendliness" part: If you are sitting in Ohio, you would not even recognize the f...ng difference in that crossed L, and even if you do you have no chance to type that letter in your very Ohioan keyboard. If you are sitting in Bialsko Biala the crossed L is the most natural letter for you and would never mistake that for a normal one.
So - to me - the only logical solution to suit you both is to add both. If you know a better solution let me know.
A totally different story is the Arabic transcripts, where Kenny just went too wild I guess.
Noone on this planet except a "Descriptive Language Analyst" what I was when I was young; would call a 2 Piastres like this:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces11259.html
Even a Syrian scholar would look very confused to learn the newly invented (btw Gulf Arabic transcipted pronanciation of "Ghurashan" which, he would at his best attempt to call: "Qirsheen") so --- all in all --- it makes ZERO sense, sorry Kenny, I told you before you have become so enthusiastic
....
Having a possibility to write "2 piastres/٢ قرشا" would be a tempting offer from Numista to excite Arab coin enthusiasts but it is a very long way to go....
So I will always vote for English AND local. ... and my stress is on the AND!
Salaam, Imre
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 22:07
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 22:07
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Quote: imrehDespite the title "currency names" we actually discuss 3 issues here:
Actually, I would say 4 issues. I would put 3.1(the problems with Poland coins) and 3.2 (the problems with Arabian coins). Maybe it looks more complicate to you right now but it is easier to me to explain you.
Quote: imreh1) Country names
100% agree, nothing to add.
Quote: imreh
2) Ruler names
As far as I can remember, before these changes there was only local name of ruler, right? And what was wrong?
Quote: imreh3) Currency names
3.1)
Polish people should learn and understand that there is no letter
Ł in English. But they must know that instead of that letter, everybody else use letter
L. It is also in Croatian but I think that it is also in many, many other languages, too. In Croatia, we use letters
Č, Ć, Š, Ž, Đ. So it is impossible to write these letters to American or any others (that don't use these letters). But all Croatian learnt that instead of
Č and
Ć, everybody use letter
C. Instead of
Š, it is
S, instead of
Ž it is
Z and instead of
Đ it is
D. So there is a simple solution.
Always and only use letters used in English (26 letters)!!! You can only use other letters when you are writing a name (of a graver, for example). The reason is that this part (English part) of Numista is English, not international!
3.2)
I think that everybody agreed that it should be like it was before. Just
2 Piasters and no native language because of the same reason, this is English part, not international!
Thank you!
Regards
Kuna
Check my doubles. ;)
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 22:54
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 22:54
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Quote: Kuna3.2)
I think that everybody agreed that it should be like it was before. Just 2 Piasters and no native language because of the same reason, this is English part, not international!
I disagree due to user-friendliness* issues, but let the future show perspective on this one
*provided the the 0.9 billion users who prefer to use the Arabic keyboard.
Metaphorically:
When I was in Shanghai first in my life back in 1997, I was invited to a very fancy restaurant, where one of the dishes was some meat wrapped in some kind of tree leaves. I was instructed to unwrap the leaves and eat the filling, but to have the leaves untouched.
I was asking: " Why can I not eat the leaves?"
The answer was: "1.7 billion people do not eat these leaves, so there must be a reason..."
now, that has changed my perspective on our beloved latin alphabet as well...
pnightingale
Joined: 27-Jul-2011
Posts: 5383
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 23:04
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 23:04
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Ah my dear Imreh you are looking at the world through your rose tinted glasses again.
While it would be nice to be able to accommodate every local language it's just not possible for a variety of reasons. Thus:
Some countries have multiple languages.
Many colonial countries had currency issued by the parent nation using a language and alphabet with no modern relation to the child population.
Ethnic cleansing will give situations where the issuers of long forgotten coins used a language which is now extinct within those borders.
What about countries which are officially bilingual such as Belgium who release coins in both languages? Translate from Flemish to French for .1 then back again for .2?
Anything which needlessly adds to page load times or adds to the irrelevant information in a window is a bad thing.
Perhaps a "more info" button would solve the problem. I'd find it very useful to be able to read about different names for a coin, especially local colloquialisms. How many non-Brits would know what a Joey, Tanner, Bob, Two and a Kick or even Quid referred to?
Local rulers have never been a problem, even the most obtuse can work out that Kaiser William II and Kaiser Willhelm II are one and the same. This seems to me to be a solution in need of a problem.
Stick to the generally accepted conventions which have been developed over many decades so that you can cross reference with other sites and avoid making changes for the sake of it. There are enough real issues to be addressed without inventing new ones.
P.S. I had a conversation in a Florida dive bar about tanks being deployed in Georgia a few years back. Several of the locals were adamant that the trouble was being caused by all those black folks in Atlanta.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 23:31
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Posted: 15-Sep-2014, 23:31
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My dear Phil,
Allah rarely offers me the chance to collide with you in debate as we are aligned in so many ways, and I am so happy that Allah now gave me a chance to discover our differences:
While I agree that the world goes in a general direction of simplification and unification, I am here to represent the stupidity of mankind and claim, yes, I do claim that a lot of Bavarians will not be able to make the mental transition from Karl Willhelm to Charles William, as I claim that not a lot of Bohemians will make the transition from Charles VI to Karl IV (obsevre the difference in numbering, because THAT is also important)
While I value your wisdom in general, I question your reality check among general average coin collectors in non-English speaking countries. This above Charles (1st or 6th) has been entering the throne as Charles III of Hungary (i.e. III.Károly) and trust me no Hungarian non-English speakers will ever identify him as Charles VI or Charles I... Confusing?
Yes.
So?
Solution?
NOT within the current mediocre (excuse my active disengagement) frameworks of Numista,but there has to be one. As an average peasant I do not need to know the English name and nickname of a guy, but I want to search within my own conceptual framework (which is by definiton limited, but that is THE FACT),
so if I do not find III.Károly --- I will skip Numista and join a stupid hungarophobe website.)
Flemmisch or French, Phil? - I guess most of the coins do answer the issue in themselves as they do take a choice, and I hope it is represented in their Numista entries.
Conclusion.
My dear Phil, I guess you are one of the most multicultural guys here, but still... can you really expect a Zulu to join and enjoy the show without minimally seeing his own currencies written properly?
Allah be good on You,
Imre
KartWay
Joined: 31-Oct-2013
Posts: 1155
Posted: 16-Sep-2014, 11:06
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Posted: 16-Sep-2014, 11:06
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" more info" button would be a perfect solution to house all the extra info,also sjoelunds variants for coins.
Kuna
Joined: 18-Feb-2013
Posts: 873
Posted: 16-Sep-2014, 19:29
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Posted: 16-Sep-2014, 19:29
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Quote: imrehQuote: Kuna3.2)
I think that everybody agreed that it should be like it was before. Just 2 Piasters and no native language because of the same reason, this is English part, not international!
I disagree due to user-friendliness* issues, but let the future show perspective on this one
*provided the the 0.9 billion users who prefer to use the Arabic keyboard.
If it is really so, then we should be able to write on forum on Arabic and many different languages. But I am pretty sure that we must write in English, right?
Check my doubles. ;)
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 17-Sep-2014, 22:29
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Posted: 17-Sep-2014, 22:29
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Kuna, it is getting tiring,
What I am saying is not that anyone shall write Arabic on the forum but to give the chance to register a coin under its full native characteristics... so that locals can align with it.
I think it is clear and it is the way it was, so I do not see the worry....
pnightingale
Joined: 27-Jul-2011
Posts: 5383
Posted: 2-Oct-2014, 15:29
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Posted: 2-Oct-2014, 15:29
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So..... two months later, everyone seems in agreement that the changes were ill advised, nobody can give me a single benefit gained to balance the mayhem caused (apart from Imreh's valiant try with the Zulu reference) and the problem remains.
What is being done to prevent the architect of this particular misery from deciding that generally accepted standards for translating non Latin alphabets into English are no longer good enough for other regions in addition to those areas already mutilated?
Has any editorial decision been made as to when the gibberish denominations are going to be returned to a useable state?
Why is nothing being communicated?
This one can't be blamed on Xavier, this is entirely on the new and improved team who are going to bring Numista back from the abyss. Lord help us.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2525
Posted: 2-Oct-2014, 18:41
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Posted: 2-Oct-2014, 18:41
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Quote: pnightingaleWhy is nothing being communicated?
This one can't be blamed on Xavier, this is entirely on the new and improved team who are going to bring Numista back from the abyss. Lord help us.
I beg your pardon?
Did I miss an important milestone?
I guess there is zero crew, only the scared passengers on this vessel...
androl
Joined: 17-Jan-2011
Posts: 293
Posted: 26-Jan-2015, 22:43
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Posted: 26-Jan-2015, 22:43
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In Russia we have now at least three different forms of "Ruble":
* "Ruble/Rubles" (used for currency name in headlines)
* "Rouble/Roubles" (the vast majority of coins)
* "Rubl/Rublja/Rublej" (wrong as that in English y is used instead of j)
I tried to change the few "Rubles" to "Roubles", but then the team member said the word "Rouble" was "wrong". So shall we change all the Roubles?
Wikipedia says both ruble and rouble is correct
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruble
Moi_dela_horowo
Joined: 19-May-2013
Posts: 824
Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 08:30
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Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 08:30
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Quote: androlIn Russia we have now at least three different forms of "Ruble":
* "Ruble/Rubles" (used for currency name in headlines)
* "Rouble/Roubles" (the vast majority of coins)
* "Rubl/Rublja/Rublej" (wrong as that in English y is used instead of j)
I tried to change the few "Rubles" to "Roubles", but then the team member said the word "Rouble" was "wrong". So shall we change all the Roubles?
Wikipedia says both ruble and rouble is correct
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruble
Hello
I am a new referee of Russia
And i prefe use "Ruble" and "Rubles"
It's hard to explain, but in transcription "Ruble" is more correct then "Rouble"
Of course rublej, roobl and others variants absolutely incorrect.
In future i will chenge all names to "Ruble" or "Rubles" (and "Kopeck")
But i need more time to do it
Same situaton with obverse and reverse
I prefere to use official sources to know which side is obverse and which is reverse
For Russian coins official source is Central Bank of Russia. And CBR tell us, that obverse is side with denomination mark (side with "5 рублей" for example) and reverse is side with coat (or picture)
And in future i think, i make all coins in catalog to one standart.
But now, first goal is upgraiding information about coins to correct version
Best regards,
Ilya.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
pustoshkinia@gmail.com
zegeri
Joined: 29-Oct-2011
Posts: 1508
Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 11:59
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Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 11:59
#
Quote: Moi_dela_horowoFor Russian coins official source is Central Bank of Russia. And CBR tell us, that obverse is side with denomination mark (side with "5 рублей" for example) and reverse is side with coat (or picture)
Do you mean that in the mint issued set this coin is with the eagle face up? Incredible.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces23889.html
Referee for Spain, Iberia (ancient), Suebi Kingdom and Visigothic Kingdom
Moi_dela_horowo
Joined: 19-May-2013
Posts: 824
Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 12:11
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Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 12:11
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Quote: zegeriQuote: Moi_dela_horowoFor Russian coins official source is Central Bank of Russia. And CBR tell us, that obverse is side with denomination mark (side with "5 рублей" for example) and reverse is side with coat (or picture)
Do you mean that in the mint issued set this coin is with the eagle face up? Incredible.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces23889.html
I dont know what doing on mint
But Central Bank, who accepted coin design tell that Eagle is obverse
http://www.cbr.ru/eng/bank-notes_coins/Base_of_memorable_coins/ShowCoins.aspx?cat_num=5110-0041
Best regards,
Ilya.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
pustoshkinia@gmail.com
jbreynolds
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 106
Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 18:19
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Posted: 27-Jan-2015, 18:19
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"Ruble" and "kopek" are the most common American usages.
The editing guidelines seem to suggest that the coin name should be a transliteration of the Cyrillic ("If the face value shows on the coin, use the same label in Latin alphabet."). If that is the case, "рублей" is "rublej", "rubley", or "rublei" depending on which romanization scheme is used.
Oklahoman
Numista team
Joined: 20-Dec-2015
Posts: 2959
Posted: 10-Jan-2016, 04:01
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Posted: 10-Jan-2016, 04:01
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I know this is an old thread. I like more on this site than I dont. What I dont like is a pretty big dont though. How on earth are people supposed to find their coins when they have no name anyone recognizes? After reading this thread im guessing the status quo will be maintained...shame it wasnt maintained pre-butcher....can we maybe make a numisdocs page so that newbies can figure this nightmare out? Other than this horror it seems to be a great page.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1750
Posted: 10-Jan-2016, 17:49
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Posted: 10-Jan-2016, 17:49
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Quote: "jbreynolds""Ruble" and "kopek" are the most common American usages.
The editing guidelines seem to suggest that the coin name should be a transliteration of the Cyrillic ("If the face value shows on the coin, use the same label in Latin alphabet."). If that is the case, "рублей" is "rublej", "rubley", or "rublei" depending on which romanization scheme is used.
"рублей" is plural .. !!! Translation would be "rubles" .. Try google translate ...
? Format Format Format ? ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Carlos55
Joined: 22-Oct-2014
Posts: 304
Posted: 12-Jan-2016, 23:25
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Posted: 12-Jan-2016, 23:25
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Hi guys,
I agree with Phill here. I think we should use the most common accepted names. If you want to you can also have the local names in whatever writing script(Arabic, Mandarin,etc) as reference, since it is always useful. After all if I didn't know any better and I saw a coins that says Magyar, I won't necessarily think Hungary. Maybe a cross reference when I search for Magyar it should direct me to Hungary, that could be useful.
As to what Imreh had to say, a peasant from whatever country is collecting coins and can't find it in the Numista website because it is in English or French and not in his local language, what then? Should there be a Numista site in Swahili ad another one in Spanish, so forth? I believe English is being used because most countries in the world have it as a second language, I could go to just about any country in the world and find people who speak English. Same thing with French, there are a lot of people in the world who speak French. Another aspect is that most people who collect coins have some level of education that permits them to use Numista. If you think about it, in order to find the website you already have to have access to a computer and speak either English or French, and all of that just to complain that the coin from your country is not written in your language, that seems unlikely and/or ungrateful.
Cheers
Carlos
Trade only within the US.
Dato Mikeladze
Joined: 25-Mar-2014
Posts: 2390
Posted: 12-Jan-2016, 23:30
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Posted: 12-Jan-2016, 23:30
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Quote: "Carlos55"Hi guys,
I agree with Phill here. I think we should use the most common accepted names. If you want to you can also have the local names in whatever writing script(Arabic, Mandarin,etc) as reference, since it is always useful. After all if I didn't know any better and I saw a coins that says Magyar, I won't necessarily think Hungary. Maybe a cross reference when I search for Magyar it should direct me to Hungary, that could be useful.
As to what Imreh had to say, a peasant from whatever country is collecting coins and can't find it in the Numista website because it is in English or French and not in his local language, what then? Should there be a Numista site in Swahili ad another one in Spanish, so forth? I believe English is being used because most countries in the world have it as a second language, I could go to just about any country in the world and find people who speak English. Same thing with French, there are a lot of people in the world who speak French. Another aspect is that most people who collect coins have some level of education that permits them to use Numista. If you think about it, in order to find the website you already have to have access to a computer and speak either English or French, and all of that just to complain that the coin from your country is not written in your language, that seems unlikely and/or ungrateful.
Cheers
Carlos
Where is button " LIKE" here?
+1
pnightingale
Joined: 27-Jul-2011
Posts: 5383
Posted: 13-Jan-2016, 01:11
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Posted: 13-Jan-2016, 01:11
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Xavier is being petitioned to regain some control over the kiddies and repair the damage
here.
Please support this request by adding your comments and voting for the proposal.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Essor Prof
Joined: 13-Apr-2015
Posts: 3784
Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 06:51
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Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 06:51
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Quote: "Dato Mikeladze"Where is button " LIKE" here?
+1
Yes, I like Carlos55 more and more too. I saw his no nonsense approach already in several topics and I really appreciate it.
Of course there are a lot of other members I can appreciate, luckily much more than the few members I can't appreciate.
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 09:28
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Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 09:28
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Hello,
Despite the fact I disagree with many comments about "english first and only" (I love travelling and I hate seing Coke and hamburgers and Malls invading the world to a point that you can be in Lima and not know if you are there or in Pekin or San Franscisco or London - of course exagerating a bit) ...
I fully agree that the whole thing has to be resolved. Catalogue is messy for many countries.
English + local names when needed. And coherency within each country !
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Cerulean
Joined: 1-Nov-2010
Posts: 1821
Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 09:31
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Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 09:31
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Boardgamegeek.com has a database field for "also known as". Seems like a good way to capture local names for coins outside of the English and French speaking world.
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 12375
Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 17:32
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Posted: 15-Jan-2016, 17:32
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Look at it this way, the numista catalog is a copy of the KM catalogs, so don't try to change that, keep the same denomination names, PLEASE!!!!
If not then the next step will be that some moderator doesn't like the assigned KM# and will start to define new for his countries and then ......
What a horror!
If somebody fells like it, make a new field with the "local" denomination name, but let the FIRST search criteria name be the one used in the KM catalogs, PLEASE!!!!!!
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
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