Currencies Gulden, Thaler, Groschen, Kreuzer etc in German/Austrian/Hungarian/Holy Empire realm

8 posts
Hello,

From a discussion started in referees forum, it appears necessary to have a discussion on those currencies and get to an agreement and table for which, where and when and the equivalences.

The we can clean up the catalogue, the fractionnary values are important because they determine the order of coins ! Some countries are quite a mess because of that.

The result of that discussion should be a sort of table with currencies x period x place.

It would be great to have your input on that, and help to compile. Cheers. André and Cie
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From Kenny:
This is very important to understand Germanic coinage:
South German talers are divided by KREUZER
1 Konventionstaler = 120 Konventionskreuzer = 144 Kreuzer Landsmunze
1 Gulder = 60 Kreuzer Landsmunze
1 Kreuzer = 4 Pfennig

HOWEVER all North German talers are divided by GROSCHEN
1 taler = 24 gutegroschen = 36 mariengroschen

Austria, Bavaria, Wurttemburg are a few examples of South  German coinage, Prussia and Saxony are a few examples of North German coinage
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comment ECapoe

Yes, but that is only after 1754.
Some extra reading there http://pierre-marteau.com/wiki/index.php?title=Holy_Roman_Empire:Money

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This http://www.landschaftsmuseum.de/Seiten/Aktuell/Schroetling_Muenze.htm
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
There are some important issues I'd like to raise:
1) The Holy Roman Empire extended beyond the borders of what currently are Germany and Austria. It included large parts of Eastern Europe. During the 18th century it also included the Austrian Netherlands (covering most of Belgium, Luxemburg and the south of the Netherlands). To the south, it extended into what is now northern Italy, Slovenia and Croatia.

2) Restricting the discussion to Kreuzer and Thaler implies limiting your focus to the Austrian/German heartland. The Speciesthaler/Reichsthaler has been legal tender throughout the Holy Roman Empire. Its name was Kronenthaler, known as Kroon/Couronne in the Austrian Netherlands and as Croccione in Northern Italy.
Domestically, Austria minted the Konventionthaler, divided into 120 Kreuzer.  These Kreuzer only circulated locally. Whereas the Reichsthaler was the currency unit and unit of account, it was subdivided into different fractionals depending on the region.

3) I can depict only the situation in the Austrian Netherlands and hope for more input from the other regions outside the Austro-German heartland.

The currency system in the Austrian Netherlands was 'inherited' from what remained under Spanish rule. The prestigious high purity silver ducaton continued to be minted till 1754 by Maria Theresia after which it was replaced by the Kronenthaler, also named Kroon (Dutch) or Couronne (French).
For trade purpose, there was the Albertusthaler, minted since 1612 also called Patagon or Patacon. Its mintage was suspended after the Holy Roman Empire 'inherited' the Austrian Netherlands after the Spanish succession war.
Small silver and copper coinage remained in use. These were the silver 'escalin' (French) or 'schelling' (Dutch). The Patard (french) or Stuiver (Dutch) (Stiver in English) was still used but not minted any longer. Mintage continued in the Dutch Republic (northern Netherlands).
The copper Liard (French) or Oord (Dutch) continued to be minted and used for change.

Patard/Stuiver = 4 Liard/Oord.
Escalin/Schelling = 24 Liard/Oord.
216 Liard/Oord = 9 Escalin/Schelling = Kronenthaler/Kroon/Couronne

The former Patagon was equal to 8 Escalin and the Ducaton was equal to 10 Escalin.

4) About Thaler footage.

From the late 15th century and far into the 18th century, the unit of weight used to measure the silver against, has been the Cologne Mark, weighing 233.856 gram. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_mark).

The official currency of the Holy Roman Empire was the Reichsthaler. Using a Cologne mark of silver, 9 Reichsthaler were minted. This was the 'Thaler footage'.  During the 18th century, Austria minted the Konventionsthaler, with a Thaler footage of 10. Yet for use outside their homeland, the Kronenthaler, equivalent of the Reichsthaler, continued to be minted: from 1755 onward in the Austrian Netherlands and until 1801 in Lombardia (Milano mint). Emperor Joseph II met opposition against the introduction of the Kronenthaler minted for general use in Austria, since it was worth over 10% more than the Konventionsthaler and an odd number of 144  Kreuzer (rather than the 120 Kreuzer/thaler Austrians were used to). People were complaining about the strength of the currency.
With the rise of Napoleon, the Holy Roman Empire lost the Austrian Netherlands (1796) and Lombardia (1801) to France. Eventually the imperial crown was claimed by Prussia and in 1807, Franz II ceded the imperial crown. He then became the first emperor (Franz I) of the Austro-Hungarian empire. This also meant the final curtain for the Kronenthaler.
Instead, Prussia started minting smaller Thaler, using a 14 Thaler footage. The Prussian Thaler contained 16.704 grams of fine silver. Germany was not united, but Princes and Dukes ruled their own region and minted their own Thaler until far into the 19th century. Some differences in weight and fineness arose. The success of the Thaler hence also was the reason for its replacement by the Mark.  In the Austro-Hungarian empire, the (10 footage) Thaler was replaced by the Gulden, which was decimalized to 100 new Kreuzer in 1857.
Gwyde
Hello,

Imreh has put a line under the name of the country/currency for Hungary:

Hongrie - Thaler (1526-1753)
2 denár = 1 krajczár • 3 krajczár = 2 poltura = 1 garas • 72 krajczár = 1 thaler (dévalué progressivement à 60 krajczár = 1 thaler)

Hungary - Thaler (1526-1753)
2 denár = 1 krajczár • 3 krajczár = 2 poltura = 1 garas • 72 krajczár = 1 thaler (gradually inflating to 60 krajczár = 1 thaler)

What do you think of that ? Shouldn't we put that systematically for all fancy old currencies.

André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
I agree  some of the currency listings are a mess and corrections need to be made. As we move backward from the 1900's to the 1600's we find the base currencies expanding.  For the most part, the German States, along with the Austrian States, seem to operate with either the Kreuzer or the Groschen.

 As we go back in time we need to add the Liard, Baltic Schilling and a number of other isolated currencies which show up for a short period of time.  Take for instance, the currency of the German State Anklam -   3 Sundische (Schilling)  1622  Countermarked on coinage of nearby states. This state had been making small silver coins since 1325. But, during the Thirty Years War had just 5 issues, all countermarked.

This is just One of the estimated 1800 states which existed during the Thirty Years War.  

I think what we should do is take each century and category (State) individually  and work our way backward to 1600.  Myself, that's as far back as I am able to go.

Currently I am trying to collect 1 of every German State, Austrian State and Austrian State which is listed in the Krause catalog. I have quite a few. Some states more than 1.

Question?  How many of us are there to make the fixes?

Thanks,
 Dabarre
dabarre
Hello,
I have found this wiki page http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipper-_und_Wipperzeit  about currency devaluation  :8D
Look at the table. An idea why we have trouble with the fractionnary values !

André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Great information! No wonder the catalogs have trouble listing the fineness for silver coins between 1550 and 1775.  Looks like the worst period was the 4 years between 1619 and 1622/23.  I remember reading  a story about 1 of the German States in the early 1600's which went out of it's way to gather in all the old coins and mint new coins of lesser fineness. The prince or duke was well known for the amount of money this made him. If I remember who this was I'll let you know.

My German is a little rusty but I managed to understand most of the article.

Thanks again

dabarre
dabarre
Found what I was looking for. The Duke's name was Wallenstein, 1647. http://sunflower.ch/en/moneystory/supermodul-beta-version/wallenstein-1627-74?slbox
This site has a nice podcast about the consortium he was in that was involved in the devaluation of the currency.  The are also some other very good podcasts on money.

dabarre
dabarre
Hello,
I just posted this on another thread  https://en.numista.com/forum/topic38806.html
Might be of interest.
I don't know yet what I'll do for Salzburg I am in charge of  B.

BTW you mention the 1622 coinage, it is fantastic. See this https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces20373.html , it is one of those kipper coins, XV kreuzer probably worth much less, with lower silver content.
Look at what is written there http://www.numisnubis.com/shopify-items/1621-24-kipper-kreuzer-silver-austria-under-ferdinand-ii  :8D  

Cheers,

André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !

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