Numista, are we ready for values? [solved]

100 posts

This message aims at: suggesting an idea to improve Numista

Status: Implemented
Upvotes: 97
Downvotes: 0

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Do you want to know the value of your collection?
I guess the answer would be either, 'yes' or it would be 'I already keep track of it'
Do you want Numista to do it for you?
I would certainly vote for YES.
It is a long ready suggestion, which I'd like to dust off now, as the recent changes are certainly positive, specially the alternative catalog numbers implementation is a major milestone.
I guess Numista now is in early teenage years, which is a wonderful development from all the childhood diseases, which we have all experienced not so long ago.
So let's step further one more step towards maturity...

Before you send me to places and call me a lunatic, I also give you my way of implementation and its steps:

1) VALUE CELLS.
On the coin page, to the right of the "personal comment" icon, add 5 additional cells, which accept only numeric value in an 123.12 format; these would be respectively: VG value, F value, VF value, XF value, UNC value. Here people can enter the estimated value of their coins.
This is a private cell, only the owner can see it, the owner can modify it, so it is your value!

2) CALCULATION OF VALUE.
if you enter data, the total value can be simply calculated by multiplying the respective grade values with the number of coins you have in the respective grade.

3)TOTAL VALUES.
In my suggestion, you can see the total value on 3 levels:
1. on the coin page; the total value of the type of coin
2. on the 'your coins' page by country, so you see the value of your French collection
3. on the dashboard, the total value of your entire collection

This will make quite a few people happy.

My suggestion goes further.
If enough people (my vote will go for 10) add a value to a given cell, the value shall become a public Numista value.

The calculation method have to consider the idiots who overvalue their coins, and those who undervalue as well, so the highest 30% and the lowest 20% shall be ignored, and the average of the rest shall become a Numista value.

This value could appear in all users private cells, as a suggestion, which of course the user can overwrite, and add his/her own estimate; with that also contributing to the Numista value, hence making it a dynamic number over time.

Needless to say these Numista values will not be in any way mandatory to accept in a swap or so, but it will be maybe a better indicator on the long run, than Krause.

Like it?
YES! This is a fantastic idea. Thanks Imre for bringing it up. Let's see what the Dear Leader thinks!
I like it!
Referee for Pre-Euro Ireland
Great idea!!
I love a great legacy for our
My friends are good numismatic.  I like to make friends and share my hobby.
I collect for years, and mints. careful with these data in my swapping
Thanks Imre for this great suggestion. I have been thinking about adding values for some time, and your idea is probably one of the best ways to achieve it.
This is a great sugestion, and I truly love it!
​​Just one question though. You said:

Quote: "imreh"​The calculation method have to consider the idiots who overvalue their coins, and those who undervalue as well, so the highest 30% and the lowest 20% shall be ignored, and the average of the rest shall become a Numista value.
​Does that mean that the value I have written in will change, due to the Numista value? In that case, during a few years everyone will have the same value on their British, Canadian and American coins. Since these are probably the ones who will get a Numista value the fastetst.

​Since I'm one of those who would probably udervalue my collection, I wouldn't mind to get these Numista standard values corrected in my own valuation, since it would help me to get a more accurate value. At the same time though, this means that it probably won't matter which value I type in, since it, sooner or later, will be change to the NSV (Numista Standard Value), or will I be ale to switch between "my value" and "NSV"?
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
@XAVIER - thanks, I hope we'll see a smooth implementation, now, that you have accepted, let me elaborate on the calculation, because...
@NGDAWA ... would like to know more,

and because I think this is the most important point in my suggestion!

So, this how Imre's Formula is suggested:
If we calculate average values for Numista users, we need to consider not only mathematics, but also user behaviour analysis. What I called "idiots" as a collecting term, is more politically correctly shall be called as inproper user behaviours, se examples below.

The short answer NGDAWA is, your evaluation is always remains yours, otherwise, as you have assumed it would make no sense, and the value would remain the same even in a century.
So this is the way it works, with an example:

Assume there is a lovely Swedish coin, which Krause values for USD 25.00

Until 10 users enter their values, it is only visible for them, no average is created, as that would be improper if we add user behaviour patterns to normal mathematical averaging.

If the count of values reaches 10, then the system calculates the Numista Recommended Value. Here is where we need to clarify idiots, or inproper user behaviours:

Inproper user behaviour
might be unintentional:
  • mistyping 25.00 to .25 or 250.00 hence unintentionally overvalueing or undervalueing the coin
  • inexperience: my coin is very shiny, so I guess it is worth the double, so I enter 50.00
  • justification: I bought this at 65.00 from a dealer or swindler, so I guess I shall justify my incompetence, and enter 65.00
might be intentional:
  • I have a swap and I want to raise the value of the coin, so I enter 560.00 hoping the Numista Value will go up
  • Same when I want to lower the value, so I enter 4.00
All of the above inproper user behaviours will be ignored as the calculation automatically ignores the highest 30% of the entries and the lowest 20% of the entries.

If we reach the 10 entries, the Numista Recommended Value appears* in the cell, let's say it is USD 28.35, then you have 2 options:
1) you leave it as is, accepting it, hence this what Numista will calculate with every time it calculates your totals. With this you also accept to go with the flow, so if the Value changes, your collection value will change accordingly.
2) you enter your own value manually, since you [Ngdawa] want to be conservative in your evaluation, you enter 24.50, and this will be the base of the calculation. With this action, you have added a new value to database, hence it will influence the Numista Recommended Value (slightly brings it down in this case)
In case #2, it would be awesome if Xavier could design a little icon (arrow up, arrow down) next to the cell, indicating that your own value is lower or higher than the average, offering a chance to correct it later.

In conclusion, you always have your own value, and with keeping it, you also contribute to the Numista Recommended Value.
The major advantage of Imre's Formula is that it gives you the liberty to overwrite the suggested values, but with that action you influence the Numista Recommended Value, hence on the long run, and with enough users Numista will provide a more accurate and up-to-date estimation, than yearly reasearch based companies,like Krause.

I hope it explains, let me know if you need more elaboration, I appreciate questions! :)


*Appearance shall be visually different from oown entries, like italic dark grey vs normal black for own entries
Yes!

I'd love to see this idea implemented in whatever way is felt to be the most technically feasible.

Even better if it could be incorporated into the swap engine so both parties could see the cumulative totals for each offer like they can with the totals for weight. Conditional formatting of the cells would also be useful so that a coin overvalued by say 20% would appear in yellow and at 50% in red and undervalued cells shown in orange and green. Values which don't have enough examples to provide a valid sample could be italicized. Obviously this would mean that the cells would have to be public or at least become viewable during a swap.

It would make calculating the relative values of the offer much easier and might go some way towards curbing the activities of the coin hustling juvies.

Anything which would encourage members to think more about the grade and value of their coins would be welcome.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Answering a PM in public:
In what currency?
My suggestion would be to make users able to choose on their own profile settings, what currency they want to work and see their values, and for simplicity reasons, I suggest 2 choices:
EUR and USD,
if it is easy to implement (Xavier will answer this, I guess) than maybe CHF and GBP.
Though I pay for my wine in HUF I wouldn't use it for numismatic evaluation.;(
Quote: "pnightingale" Values which don't have enough examples to provide a valid sample could be italicized. Obviously this would mean that the cells would have to be public or at least become viewable during a swap.


​We have probably cross-posted, my dear Phil;)

Indicating the values in swaps is off course a great idea. Seems like it is obvious my preference is not swapping here X-D

I would stick to having 10 entries, before a value appears as a Numista Recommended Value (NRV?)
Reasons:
1) Appropriateness, proper averaging considering not only mathematics but user behaviour patterns (see above)
2) Let's encourage contribution, and what you have suggested: "thinking more about values and grades" - the later we suggest NRV, the more members will actually do the research, so the appropriateness of the value will be more credible.
3) Correctness of the catalog will bring us more mature folks, as well, which is a key mission to this teenage website (very private opinion)
Yes, I believe we were typing simultaneously my dear Imreh.

I understand that swapping isn't a big priority for you and many others but why not expand a great idea in as many directions as possible?

At he moment we have a basic manual swap engine where users have to go off site to get values. I'd like to have as much information as possible right on the swap page. Currently it isn't even possible to see the grade of the coins under offer which is a huge hindrance.

At some future date it ought to be possible for members to interrogate the value cells to generate a search query. for example-

I want the following list of coins in at least VF condition from active members living in the USA who speak English . The list could then be scored according most relevant then filtered by removing anyone with no swaps in the past year and/or with less than .9 feedback rating. The possibilities are endless.

We already have a potentially great asset in the "I want this coin" and "I don't want this coin" fields which could be combined with the "Imreh Cells" to create a quite sophisticated trading platform. Other cells could be added, either visible publicly or private but still used by the system.

There is a whole lot of priceless information in both the database and the members list which is just sitting around gathering dust right now. we should make use of it to make the site more dynamic and research friendly. Quite apart from swapping I'd love to be able to see how trends develop in numismatics. The information is all there but it's not very easy to access.

2015 has been a mostly great year for Numista, 2016 could really seal the deal and turn it into a powerhouse used by every collector in the world as a source for coins and information beyond a mere catalogue.

A final thought for you (and others) to ponder. How would you suggest that coins with a value dictated by their metal content should he handled? For example most 20th century silver coins in circulated condition are worth whatever the silver prices might be today, so a .500 George VI shilling in less than EF might be worth only $2.50 but not too long ago it was worth about three times that. As most of the historical data would have been entered long ago, the NSV would always lag far behind in a rising market and float way above a falling market.

I can quite easily see how this could be exploited by the sharks who swim in our waters to swindle novices out of their coins.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"
​​Howdy,

I am not into silver values, but I accept it could have a modifying effect. Currently I'd like to keep it simple and see - insha'Allah - that Xavier implements this value thing.
In general, I believe that "Imre's Formula" guarantees the accuracy of the precious metal content, providing enough number of people re-evaluate their coins periodically.
I guess this QUOTE function needs repair.... anyway, still I trust you understand what I refer to....
Quote: "imreh"​I guess this QUOTE function needs repair.... anyway, still I trust you understand what I refer to....
​Yes, no worries. I've already though of a solution while cooking lunch. I do some of my best thinking while engaged in mundane tasks.

We already have the current bullion value so it ought to be simple enough to check if there is a value present, compare it against the value cell and apply the conditional formatting discussed previously?
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
one more YES  ! really great idea! Thank You, Imreh! Hope it will come true soon
yours
David
Great idea. This is something I always wanted to see here on Numista and I admit I would not think of it. Great idea mister Imreh.

Do we need to have 10 values for each condition of the coin? For example if 5 people enter value for the coin in unc condition and 5 for xf, will that be enough to have RNV, or we need to wait that each condition has 10 evaluations. And what if we have 10 values for xf but only 5 for unc, will that mean that Numista will show only RNV for xf?

Another question is do we need to have 10 evaluations for each year/mint mark? Some coins are common but have rare years and value of that year can be significantly different than that of the other years of the same type

I think that your idea of eliminating top 30 and bottom 20% is great. Maybe some other requirements should be added before somebody's evaluation is taken in consideration. For example members with bad swap ratings are likely to be swindlers and they might enter false value on purpose. Maybe we should not consider their evaluation towards RNV. Also inexperienced collectors/members are also more likely to overvalue or undervalue their coins and maybe there should be some rules about that as well (for example only members of Numista older than x and those who joined website at least x time ago and those who proved to be real people and not swindlers by having x positive ratings).

One more time GREAT IDEA
@PAJASKOT
Yes, my logic says different value for every single year, mintmark, variation and grade.

I know it will take ages to reach a Numista suggested value for all of these, but this is the only way [I see] to ensure a dynamic accuracy.
People who have a certain a coin in a given year, grade, will fill that cell sooner or later, so they have a proper a valuation of their collection, and I do not see a problem that the suggested average appears only later.

My anticipation is that sooner or later someone will shout: But I collect by type only.
No worries, just take the effort to examine your coin's year, mintmark and grade and enter your estimation. Bingo.
besides likes, do you guys have a comment or suggestion?
YES!
A great idea!
ROMAE AETERNAE
Good evening!

That's fantastic idea! I have read all thread with great pleasure and decided to voice my thoughts.

Ideally, each unique coin (its uniqueness is defined by Y#/KM#.., Mint, Year, Grade, ...) like in Krause) should have NSV . It will take an extremely long time. Moreover, NSV might not be able to follow market price described above.

What I think... Is it legal, to store Krauze Price in Numista DB. If yes we could enter values all together fast enough. Needless to say that Numista DB will be able to store all versions of Krause ( 2015, 2016) and display only the latest one for example for calculations etc..

Both Krauze and NSV can be displayed together and be valuable information for all users, particularly for novices. Even gurus sometimes do not have Krauze near at hand.

Just thoughts.
Best regards,
afpcoins
I think this has the potential to be a great tool. You may not get an exact number but it will certain give you a nice ball park range. I spend alot of time buried in coin books and researching Ebay sold prices to place values on my coins. I'd be happy to share those values with Numista users. For example, the old 500 Lire silver coins from the Vatican...book value is about 40$ for most types but on Ebay they tend to go for between 17-20$ so that's a more realistic value in the current market. I feel many other users would have these sorts of tidbits that can help everyone else out!
Quote: "cncote10"​ For example, the old 500 Lire silver coins from the Vatican...book value is about 40$ for most types but on Ebay they tend to go for between 17-20$ so that's a more realistic value in the current market. I feel many other users would have these sorts of tidbits that can help everyone else out!
It seems to me that many National (or Commercial) catalogues at least slightly overrate values.
Best regards,
afpcoins
Rather than being illegal to post what would be mostly Krause prices, I think this would give Krause a better insight into creating a value. This would certainly be better than Krause's method of increasing a value by 10% across the board.
The only drawback I see is the inability of the average collector to grade properly.
Quote: "imreh"​@NGDAWA ... would like to know more,

​​The short answer NGDAWA is, your evaluation is always remains yours, otherwise, as you have assumed it would make no sense, and the value would remain the same even in a century.
​So this is the way it works, with an example:

​Assume there is a lovely Swedish coin, which Krause values for USD 25.00

​Until 10 users enter their values, it is only visible for them, no average is created, as that would be improper if we add user behaviour patterns to normal mathematical averaging.

​​2) you enter your own value manually, since you [Ngdawa] want to be conservative in your evaluation, you enter 24.50, and this will be the base of the calculation. With this action, you have added a new value to database, hence it will influence the Numista Recommended Value (slightly brings it down in this case)
​In case #2, it would be awesome if Xavier could design a little icon (arrow up, arrow down) next to the cell, indicating that your own value is lower or higher than the average, offering a chance to correct it later.

​*Appearance shall be visually different from oown entries, like italic dark grey vs normal black for own entries
​Lite I said earlier I would even prefer to get my valuation corrected, and to me this really sounds like a great idea! I also like the arrow icon's and/or the italic alternative. I am all for!
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
One of things I miss from my old Access database is the indication of the value of my collection and would very much appreciate the opportunity to enter values per grade

Although I recognise the need for a couple of "universal" currencies. I would like the choice of either entering mine in a currency of my own or being able to convert the individual values to a currency that means something to me.

Roy
Quote: "numismaticroy"​One of things I miss from my old Access database is the indication of the value of my collection and would very much appreciate the opportunity to enter values per grade

​Although I recognise the need for a couple of "universal" currencies. I would like the choice of either entering mine in a currency of my own or being able to convert the individual values to a currency that means something to me.

​Roy
​Dear Roy,

I guess my original suggestion, perfectly coveres all these needs,

Feliz Navidad,
Hi Feliz
I am looking forward to the implementation of your suggestion.

Thanks for raising it.

Roy
Quote: "numismaticroy"​Hi Feliz<:D

Quote: "bam777"
Quote: "numismaticroy"​Hi Feliz<:D

​​
​communicating across different languages can be quite comical.

Thanks for drawing it to my attention.

Feliz Navidad

Roy
Just an Easter Note,

after nummerous christmasses and easters has passed by:
Not to any seasoned Numista professioanals' surprise, I guess absolutely nothing has happened to this thing.

Anyways, God bless Easter bunnies,
Cheers,

Imre
Imre, thanks for your always inspiring comments. You know how long is the way from my eyes to my brain and to my fingers. The idea for values reached my brain, it is now on the way to my fingers. After one Christmas or two, and some activity of my fingers on the keyboard, the values should be there. Happy Easter!
Quote: "Xavier"​Imre, thanks for your always inspiring comments. You know how long is the way from my eyes to my brain and to my fingers. The idea for values reached my brain, it is now on the way to my fingers. After one Christmas or two, and some activity of my fingers on the keyboard, the values should be there. Happy Easter!
​Sounds cool. ;) so it i more than halfway from eyes to fingers.
Happy Easter!
I wonder if the site could link to the NGC World Coin Price Guide via KM numbers?
Quote: "Xavier"​Imre, thanks for your always inspiring comments. You know how long is the way from my eyes to my brain and to my fingers. The idea for values reached my brain, it is now on the way to my fingers. After one Christmas or two, and some activity of my fingers on the keyboard, the values should be there. Happy Easter!
​Happy easter to you too Xavier.
Its great to know that its only a matter of time :)

This is going to be an awesome improvement to the site!
Happy Easter,
if i t makes a change,...
XAVIER, remember the moment....
First of all, Imre, great suggestion! While reading this thread a few comments popped up in my mind.

I don't know anything about valuing coins, but would it be an idea to enter an incremental value for silver and gold coins? For example, you manually enter 2,50 for silver coin that has a material value of 1,63. That makes the total value 4,13. The 4,13 value changes dynamically if the material value changes.

Not to nitpick, but I don't think Numista Recommended Value is the correct term. Numista doesn't recommend anything. Heaven forbid someone hold Numista liable for purchasing a coin that, for whatever reason, had an overstated NRV. Numista Average User Value, NAUV, maybe?
What a great idea guys,

DappereDodo has a great suggestion, an NAUV is more sensible i believe.
Whatever we want to call it, I just can't wait to see this happen.

It seems like we have some time to think ....
I would like to see values on coins.
No matter if it is Krause or NGC or average or any kind or market value.

Without values, this only benefits who are in the business, as a ordinary collector is not aware coin by coin of the value. And honestly, I do not have the patience to check coin by coin if - for instance - a Numista swap is fair or not. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost. Not a big debate on that, but of course, you can use it to take advantage. Probably the lobby is stronger to keep the way it is...

Anyway, yes, I would love to have a calculated estimated value of my collection. Just for the joy of it, and probably I would be impressed as some coins are more valuable than I expected and vice-versa.
Dear Xavier,
Christmass is approaching slowly but surely... X-D
Quote: "imreh"​Dear Xavier,
​Christmass is approaching slowly but surely... X-D
​every day it get closer

but why wait till christmas?
Quote: "pizzifini"
Quote: "imreh"​Dear Xavier,
​​Christmass is approaching slowly but surely... X-D
​​every day it get closer

​but why wait till christmas?
X-D Read above! Xavier said at Easter that the thing is now closer to his fingers... Personally I think it should have been done 5 years ago, but Xavier is certainly not a fast-moving-unit. It will happen eventually if he promised, insha'Allah!
We all anxiously await developments.
Loruca
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
We can't wait. All we are anxious. :8D
I'm really looking forward to seeing this implemented. It would be a feature unique to Numista and would widen the gap between the number one website and the also rans.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Bumping and subtly asking for a progress report if possible.
Agreed upon, being worked on. No idea how long, but at least it is accepted. Cannot say more because I do not know more. :|
Catalogue administrator
I worked intensively on this last spring, but I could not get to a satisfactory result. I need to get back to it. That will definitely be the next big update of Numista.
Quote: "Jarcek"​Agreed upon, being worked on. No idea how long, but at least it is accepted. Cannot say more because I do not know more. :|
Posted by Xavier on 10-Aug-2017, 11:13PM
I worked intensively on this last spring, but I could not get to a satisfactory result. I need to get back to it. That will definitely be the next big update of Numista.

Good to hear, thank you for the fast responses.
Would it be somthing like World Coin Gallery where the values would be linked to Krause, or still manually entered as mentioned before?
I think this is probably the feature that would add the biggest value to the site, but it is going to be a huge task and I don't envy the people who have to work out how to implement it.
RI see a big problem in adding the values to the coins in Numista, precisely the fact "who states that the values are correct?"
One can propose high values if has a coin to exchange for other, or vice versa a low value for the coin that he wants to receive in a swap. NO one can take values inserted by someone that cannot really identified as real
KM is assumed to be impartial since cannot be directly involved in buying/exchanging coins
CirculableCoins
Someone mentioned that these values would be set by the referees.
I see 2 valid ways to get values:
  1. Let users enter the values, and compute the value based on users' values. Of course you need to discard inconsistent values to avoid single users to influence the value, as explained in Imreh's initial message.
  2. Retrieve prices of sales/auctions on the Internet. This can be automated or manually entered.

For the moment, I focus on the solution 1, but ideally the value could be based on both approaches in the future.

Taking values from the Krause is not an option for me, as the values are Krause's property.

Asking referees to enter values doesn't seem really feasible to me, as the amount of work to analyze market and sales price is huge, and could be better achieved by the 2 solution above.
Quote: "Xavier"1. Let users enter the values, and compute the value based on users' values. Of course you need to discard inconsistent values to avoid single users to influence the value, as explained in Imreh's initial message.

2. Retrieve prices of sales/auctions on the Internet. This can be automated or manually entered.

A statistical variation of the user´s values would be an interesting feature in order to see the accuracy of the inputs. Also, i would guess that the values inserted by members are those of coins they do have and a certain degree of bias will always lie in the background of every value inserted.

I know this will only complicate things, but what if both 1 and 2 were applied in the same valuation system? I know this will be a hell for all the referees to input values manually for each coin and each year from auctions, but for me, this, combined with the user inputted values, will provide a more realistic value estimate.
Referee for Ancient Greece,  Norway and the Kingdom of Cyprus
I think user input values should maybe be something that needs verification, with referees accepting values that are within a reasonable range. That way values could be added for the whole site very quickly as a team effort, just like the Catalog Improvement projects. Referee (non-owner) values need to be included no matter which way we go because of the super-rare (or low mintage) stuff that comes with some countries. Then non-owners (or referees) could add values based on auction results.
Instead of collecting coin values from catalogs or the opinions from user input, why not have a column for the collector to enter the actual purchase price that was paid. From there an average (value) is created. Having the coin value based on the actual purchase price would reflect the value of a coin more accurately I would think.
Good idea. Personal sales and auction results.
Historical data works great for coins with a genuine numismatic value but for those coins whose price is dictated by their metal content (many low grade vintage coins and almost all of the NCLT commemoratives) the price is dictated by the current daily spot price.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
RI see a big problem in adding the values to the coins in Numista, precisely the fact "who states that the values are correct?"
One can propose high values if has a coin to exchange for other, or vice versa a low value for the coin that he wants to receive in a swap. NO one can take values inserted by someone that cannot really identified as real
KM is assumed to be impartial since cannot be directly involved in buying/exchanging coins
CirculableCoins
Quote: "GiannaReggio"​RI see a big problem in adding the values to the coins in Numista, precisely the fact "who states that the values are correct?"
​One can propose high values if has a coin to exchange for other, or vice versa a low value for the coin that he wants to receive in a swap. NO one can take values inserted by someone that cannot really identified as real
​KM is assumed to be impartial since cannot be directly involved in buying/exchanging coins
​yeah, you already said that...
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
I don't see why we cant use the Krause values. Xavier stated that their values are their property, but their values are quoted by many other catalogues, world coin gallery used to use them as well.

Perhaps a way to include them would be to have a pop-up screen when people who are adding the coin to their collection to ask what they paid for the coin (or they can skip it if they got the coin in a bulk lot, swap, or it was gifted to them). Every time someone adds what they paid for it we can get an updated average.

i.e.
  • Someone buys a VF 1933 New Zealand Shilling and enters that they paid $10, the value is listed as $10
  • A second person buys the same coin and enters that they paid $15, the value is upgraded to $12.50.
  • A third person buys the same coin and lists that they paid $17, the value is upgraded to $14

You could also include a formula to update the values each year to account for inflation.
Quote: "neilithic"​I don't see why we cant use the Krause values. Xavier stated that their values are their property, but their values are quoted by many other catalogues, world coin gallery used to use them as well.

​Perhaps a way to include them would be to have a pop-up screen when people who are adding the coin to their collection to ask what they paid for the coin (or they can skip it if they got the coin in a bulk lot, swap, or it was gifted to them). Every time someone adds what they paid for it we can get an updated average.

​i.e.

  • Someone buys a VF 1933 New Zealand Shilling and enters that they paid $10, the value is listed as $10

  • A second person buys the same coin and enters that they paid $15, the value is upgraded to $12.50.

  • A third person buys the same coin and lists that they paid $17, the value is upgraded to $14


​You could also include a formula to update the values each year to account for inflation.
​When I buy bulk lots I divide the number of coins into the total paid for the average price of each coin.
Quote: "SRV5490"
Quote: "neilithic"​I don't see why we cant use the Krause values. Xavier stated that their values are their property, but their values are quoted by many other catalogues, world coin gallery used to use them as well.
​​
​​Perhaps a way to include them would be to have a pop-up screen when people who are adding the coin to their collection to ask what they paid for the coin (or they can skip it if they got the coin in a bulk lot, swap, or it was gifted to them). Every time someone adds what they paid for it we can get an updated average.
​​
​​i.e.
​​

  • Someone buys a VF 1933 New Zealand Shilling and enters that they paid $10, the value is listed as $10
    ​​

  • A second person buys the same coin and enters that they paid $15, the value is upgraded to $12.50.
    ​​

  • A third person buys the same coin and lists that they paid $17, the value is upgraded to $14
    ​​

​​
​​You could also include a formula to update the values each year to account for inflation.
​​When I buy bulk lots I divide the number of coins into the total paid for the average price of each coin.

​Yes but this will skew the values because you're not going to pay market values in a bulk lot, you'll be getting them for a small fraction of their values. We just want the purchase details of the people who have bought the individual coins.
Purchase price should be avoided for several reasons. We're all savvy buyers or at least trying to be and let's be honest, a large part of the enjoyment of numismatics comes from tracking down that one great coin for an unbelievable price or spotting that one tiny detail which everyone else missed.

Of course we all get it wrong too but nobody wants to talk about that!

I like the original idea best, basing the value on what the owner thinks it's worth and filtering out the two extremes. It shouldn't be too difficult to manually insert a bit of code on Jan 1st each year that would decay the older entries by the amount that coin prices are considered to have risen. The drawback is of course that prices don't rise across the board by a uniform percentage. Silver and gold coins might jump while copper takes the proverbial shit. I guess you would then have to factor in inflation for each country..... the more I think about this the more happy I am that Dear Leader is going to be doing this and not me!

I'm not sure if I've explained this with my usual clarity but you get the idea of what I'm trying to get at?

To make this work right is going to take a very complicated formula with a lot of "if's" and "then's". Hey, if it was easy it would already have been done ammirite?

Please, please, please Glorious Leader..... integrate the values field into the swap engine. It's already the best available but by adding prices it would put "our" version light years ahead of those loveable picture stealing rogues. The prices don't have to be bang up to the minute accurate but it would save so much time and so many arguments if those opening swaps could have a running total of what they are asking to receive. It would also offer newer members some protection from the predators. I really get angry when I hear of how many get pounced on by the hustlers as soon as they list a silver coin or two. How many great numismatists have we lost over the years to this type of thing? New or young collectors should be nurtured and encouraged, not exploited for a quick buck. As they typically don't know where to go for accurate information it would be really useful to be able to see the approximate value of their coins from the moment they enter them into their Numista collection.

While I can't offer much help with the nuts and bolts of the implementation I do have the grade and value of every coin I have for sale / swap in the comments field. You are more than welcome to clone the account to use when it comes to live testing of the formula. This is a very worthwhile project and one which I'd be happy to help with in any way I can.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Perhaps the way to cut out all arguments over valuations (I can see that happening when people get to enter their own values) is to get the referees to enter the values from any local catalogues they have for their countries.

Obviously some of the catalogues will probably just mirror Krause, but most will have local values for the coins. I have the Renniks catalogue for Australian and New Zealand trade tokens and that one is supposedly taken from market values over the past year

http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/5916987

I also have the John Bertrand New Zealand coin catalogue which has different prices to the Krause catalogue even though it lists the coins with the Krause numbers

https://www.onlinecoinsandcollectables.com.au/products/2017-edition-the-john-bertrand-new-zealand-coin-and-banknote-catalogue

Obviously this is going to be a task for some of the referees who have thousands of coins and easier for those with fewer, but I think it's probably the fairest way
As an example, I like how discogs.com handles values. They report the minimun, average, and maximum values paid for an item in their marketplace over the last 12 months.
Yes!
I would like to see calculated value of all circulating coins you have in collection
https://mnesiccoins.gitlab.io/    https://www.instagram.com/mnesiccoins/
I like this idea. It would be a cool way for me to have some idea of what my collection should be insured for.

Having said that, I am terrible at grading my coins. I try to be conservative in my estimates, but I see a lot of coins professionally graded at AU - MS that look worse than the coins that I "grade" at XF. Then, I see it the other way, too.

Maybe I should post something in another thread asking for advice on grading coins. Anyone have any tips for grading coins?
C. Scott Stewart
Charlestown, IN, USA
There are sources in internet that can count approximate value of your collection (for example coinsbook.net). So I think numista should have such feature.
I think everyone's ready for values now. I reset all my coins and then realised how long it takes
ARBYS<>ATT!C

eventually ill open a coin/collectible store :0)
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssss ;-)
Xavier, any news or update on this?

I understand that if something like this would be implemented it would be a lot of work.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
I hope so, it would take lots of work.
          'We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.'
                                                      Sir Winston Churchill
Hi,

strange enough I don't care, since I keep my main collection file in Excel, where I have my prices of my collection coins,. The price is what I paid for it at a given moment or what SCWC had as a value at moment of entering the coin in the collection.

It's rare, that I redo the prices of my coins.

Now for my doubles? For the same year I have coins ranging from F, VF, XF, AU to UNC! OK, I don't keep my doubles in numista, too much work with the quantity I have, but how would you handle that in future PRICE BASED Numista? It happens that I adjust the prices of some small part of my doubles because of a running swap, but again I don't revise everything everytime a new SCWC comes out. Too much work for nothing.

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
Values are in development too, but it gain depends on Xaviers time.
Catalogue administrator
Waiting the values cells for years, I hope still in development =)
Coming very soon ;)
Oooh, I like that "very" A OT!
loruca.
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Quote: "Xavier"​Coming very soon ;)
​It's about time! B)
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
There will be more than that, but I shall tell no spoiler.

BTW: This is linked with maintenance information you see on top of the page.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​There will be more than that, but I shall tell no spoiler.

​BTW: This is linked with maintenance information you see on top of the page.
​I noticed it, and that's what i wished, but couldn't really hope that was it, as otherwise i would have disappointed myself!
Loruca
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
Quote: "Jarcek"​There will be more than that, but I shall tell no spoiler.

​BTW: This is linked with maintenance information you see on top of the page.
​I am sooo excited!! :8D:8D:8D
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Cant wait!
v quick, congrats
          'We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give.'
                                                      Sir Winston Churchill
Quote: "Jarcek"​There will be more than that, but I shall tell no spoiler.

​BTW: This is linked with maintenance information you see on top of the page.
​I literally can't wait to see what's being planned!
Quote: "CassTaylor"
​​I literally can't wait to see what's being planned!
​Don't expect too much! It's mainly just what was discussed here (and hopefully not too many bugs).
Oh, I saw it, and it surely goes few steps further than this thread. <:D
Catalogue administrator
Hi,

I'm still not convinced of a future Numista pricing system, but let's have a look. It's a potential bomb! Just think about it? KM values were used all over the world for nearly every swap, now we'll have some kind of "Bastard" system coming in to the equation. Admittedly I have my serious doubt of the future Numista values on the world market.
Sorry about being negative about this.
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin varieties in French:
https://monnaiesetvarietes.numista.com
I am very positive about the changes, the other sites that use average pricing (like uCoin) works pretty nice and is what makes all the difference.

If Numista add this feature, then will become for sure the best site of coins ever made, with long and prosper life.

:)
Yes,
This is one of the best IDEA ever. Thank you.
I am quite excited!
Can't wait!!

Just 4 more hours!!! :8D:8D:8D
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
1 HOUR!!! :8D:8D:8D:8D:8D:8D:8D
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
It is activated :)
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic67354.html
Quote: "Xavier"​It is activated :)
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic67354.html
​How can i see the coin values you added in the update?
I like the "Buying value" and a random "value" or smth like that. I'm just entering the price I bought it for. :`
But yeah, will there be an "average value" or smth later on so we can see if we made a good deal or not? :)
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Values show up when at least 4 members enter a value.

Have a look at Xavier's post here for more details.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Quote: "imreh"Do you want to know the value of your collection?
​I guess the answer would be either, 'yes' or it would be 'I already keep track of it'
Do you want Numista to do it for you?
​I would certainly vote for YES.
​It is a long ready suggestion, which I'd like to dust off now, as the recent changes are certainly positive, specially the alternative catalog numbers implementation is a major milestone.
​I guess Numista now is in early teenage years, which is a wonderful development from all the childhood diseases, which we have all experienced not so long ago.
​So let's step further one more step towards maturity...

​Before you send me to places and call me a lunatic, I also give you my way of implementation and its steps:

​1) VALUE CELLS.
​On the coin page, to the right of the "personal comment" icon, add 5 additional cells, which accept only numeric value in an 123.12 format; these would be respectively: VG value, F value, VF value, XF value, UNC value. Here people can enter the estimated value of their coins.
​This is a private cell, only the owner can see it, the owner can modify it, so it is your value!

​2) CALCULATION OF VALUE.
​if you enter data, the total value can be simply calculated by multiplying the respective grade values with the number of coins you have in the respective grade.

​3)TOTAL VALUES.
​In my suggestion, you can see the total value on 3 levels:
​1. on the coin page; the total value of the type of coin
​2. on the 'your coins' page by country, so you see the value of your French collection
​3. on the dashboard, the total value of your entire collection

This will make quite a few people happy.

My suggestion goes further.
​If enough people (my vote will go for 10) add a value to a given cell, the value shall become a public Numista value.

​The calculation method have to consider the idiots who overvalue their coins, and those who undervalue as well, so the highest 30% and the lowest 20% shall be ignored, and the average of the rest shall become a Numista value.

​This value could appear in all users private cells, as a suggestion, which of course the user can overwrite, and add his/her own estimate; with that also contributing to the Numista value, hence making it a dynamic number over time.

​Needless to say these Numista values will not be in any way mandatory to accept in a swap or so, but it will be maybe a better indicator on the long run, than Krause.

​Like it?
​YES . Look good
Best Regards
Alexey.V

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