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World Coins Chat: Hungary and Hungarian States (i.e. Hungarian related territories)

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imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2305
Sziasztok,

As a Hungarian, I just recognised that we are way behind the world (as usual) to initiate a Hungarian interest related topic, so this is it to start with.

So I'd like to start this discussion with some retrospective contemplation:

1) We have Hungary in the catalog. Now that should not come as a surprise. Hungary is meant to be undivided from 977 from Géza's takeover of the Carpathian basin till today. Despite of requests I am strict in not dividing this country in more, based on the historical continuality.

2) We have Hungarian States. That is more of an agreement between Xavier and me, based historic facts. So that place includes all individuals and territories, who have been granting coin minting right by the legal Hungarian Throne. It has Slavonia in the 10th to 13th century, private and city issues from 13th to 18th century (i.e. Buda or Széchényi ) and most importantly it includes Transylvania, which is wrongly placed by Krause as a totally independent country.

We are using the following catalogs for documentation:

1) As a major source it is:
Magyar Éremhatározó by Emil Unger (Ajtósi Dürer Kiadó) - marked as "ÉH" in the list of references
2) As a secondary source:
Münzkatalog Ungarn by Huszár Lajos (Corvina) - marked as "H" in the list of references

We have requested Xavier to add some more like the Leányfalusi-Nagy catalog for LN, but that waits for confirmation,

So, folks, if you have any questions to Hungary or Hungraian relatd territories, do not hesitate to attack me, I have all the answers :wiz:
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1087
Working these days to improve the catalog of Hungarian states I was wondering why some denominations of gold coins are Dukat and others are Forint. I don't ask why it's one way and not another but why the denominations are not unified. Just few examples:

I think there was more people that work on the catalog and each had different preferences. What do you think?
http://numisdoc.ro
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2305
That is probably an inherited confusion, Andy, I will look into that as soon as I get in contact with my resources (e.g. I am home) - my wide guess though that it does not a difference for most of the history, as ducat translates to forint in Hungarian currency system for quite a long time. ....
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1087
Yes, it's exactly what I said. The problem it's not the name: Unger used both Forint and Dukat as denomination, Resch used Dukat, sometimes they mixed up. I am comfortable with both denomination but since there are not many coins involved we could try to unify them under a single denomination, no matter if it's Dukat or Forint. History is safe and not changed by the denomination. :`
http://numisdoc.ro
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2305
Quote: "Andy289"​Yes, it's exactly what I said. The problem it's not the name: Unger used both Forint and Dukat as denomination, Resch used Dukat, sometimes they mixed up. I am comfortable with both denomination but since there are not many coins involved we could try to unify them under a single denomination, no matter if it's Dukat or Forint. History is safe and not changed by the denomination. :`
​I'll do that clean-up as soon I have access to my books .... this will not be soon, unfortunately.
But if you are confident to suggest changes I trust you, so I will accept those ones in the Numista catalog.
chomp-master
Joined: 10-Mar-2015
Posts: 5744
Funny to see that Dukat and Forint should, in fact, be a double naming of the same coinage.

Anyway I've no specific question, just the pleasure to share my only old Hungarian coin (1579 is my only coin made prior to the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, and it seems we have both the same type): https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36386.html
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 5558
Quote: "chomp-master"https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36386.html
​Which of course do not have Capitalized currency field - denár! :DX-D

My only Pre-Habsburg Hungarian coin is this one: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces33692.html which intrigues me, as it has no known value at all! B.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Kingdom of Bohemia.
chomp-master
Joined: 10-Mar-2015
Posts: 5744
Quote: "Jarcek"
Quote: "chomp-master"https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36386.html
​​Which of course do not have Capitalized currency field - denár! :D X-D

​My only Pre-Habsburg Hungarian coin is this one: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces33692.html which intrigues me, as it has no known value at all! B.
​Beware with space between smileys, this causes bugs!
Well spotted issue, didn't notice that before.
And lucky you're to have one of the 2 only types of copper coins from medieval coinage of Hungary.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 5558
It was cheap because it's holed. But details are still pretty. :)

EDIT: Better avatar! X-D
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Kingdom of Bohemia.
jokinen
Joined: 10-Feb-2013
Posts: 1775
I was browsing through this part of the catalogue and got intrigued to reverse engineer the monetary systems in use in Hungarian lands. The catalogue is still a bit inconsistent here (but I do appreciate that so many old coins have been added to the database).

According to some sources I found, the 18th century system was:

1 Ducat = 2 or 2.25 Thaler
1 Thaler = 2 Forint
1 Forint = 20 Garas = 40 Poltura = 60 Krajczar = 80 Greschl = 100 Denar
1 Maria = 17 Krajczar

But I'm not sure what it all looked like before the Ottoman conquest. At least I know:

1 Denar = 2 Obulus

But then I struggle. I would expect a Forint to be 240 Denar. But where does that leave the Krajczar and Poltura? To my best knowledge, a Krajczar was 4 Denar, but maybe it was 2. A Poltura was 1.5 Krajczar.

I hope Imre and others could be so kind to shine a light on this.

Köszönöm
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2305
RE: Jokinen

Firstly, sorry for the late answer, I am rarely around recently.

Eventually, I will sort this currency thing out. Now, let me just highlight the challenges around the issue.
Hungary after the Árpádians and even more so under the Hasburg kings has been using various monetary systems at the same time.
This is like working in an airport taxfree shop for 600 years, where you accept and give change in pre-decimal British Pounds, Euros, Dollars and even Deutsche Mark. So how much is 2 shillings and a penny in eurocents? It depends on the time.
In the original Hungarian system is obulus = 1 denár; which was reformed by Károly Róbert introducing the gold Forint. The forint (gold) ratio to the denár (silver) is never standard, it depends on the gold-silver prices. :(

Then gradually the Polish based Garas (Groszy) entered the system, starting at 3 denár = 1 garas under the pre-Habsburg kings, then garas gaining popularity and advantage.
With the Habsburgs taking the throne, the Tallér enters the systems. According to paper-based sources (I'll try to scan those here later) 1 Tallér at I. Ferdinánd's time (1526-1546) is 88,14 denárs, slightly more in West, significantly less in Transylvania, where Tallér was welcomed less enthusiastically.
Some extract from the conversion chart:
1 Tallér is already 91,58 denárs by the end of Ferdinand's rule (1564); II.Mátyás in 1619 counts 120,58 denárs for a Tallér... by the end of Mária Theresia's rule (1780) you need to dig out 299,88 denárs to get a nice Tallér! :)

Then you have the krajczár (kreuzer), which is again an Austrian type and the poltura with a Polish influence. The introduction sees 2 denár = 1 krajczár, but then the krajczár is more linked to the Tallér so they divert from each other soon. Roughly 3 krajczár = 2 poltura = 1 garas; the 2 poltura = 1 garas is relatively consistent through time, like the 2 obulus = 1 denár as they are more linked to each other.
When Krajczár starts you give 72 krajczárs for a Tallér, which gradually downgrades to 60; which gets fixed at the end of the 18th century.

My conclusion is that it will remain somewhat confusing, though I will process the coins slowly to see at least the right sequence when you sort coins by value in Numista.
If you see some burning issues, of course feel free submit a modification and I'll approve it.
Thanks

ps. Máriás is a vague term, popular name for the small silver coin picturing Maria, mother of Jesus on the coin, it can be a denár, a garas or a krajczár as well :)
imreh
Joined: 4-May-2012
Posts: 2305
Hello fellow collectors of Hungarian coins,

1) Hungarian coins are complete now in the catalog from the beginning of the Kingdom to 1526, the Habsburg era. Both Unger's and Huszár's catalog plus some auction items are fully processesed. We are missing some pictures, so if you come across them in auctions, please, add them.

2) The currencies for Habsburg will be separated into Gold and Silver coinage to reflect the paralell currency system in the Habsburg era, please comment if you have suggestions.

3) The catalog numbers are processed as follows:
a) The leading catalog number is Unger's Éremhatározó (ÉH#) as this is the most used and userfriendly catalog, so it will be always the first cat, number, thus Numista will list coins according ÉH numbers, if you are setting the display options to "reference"
b) Followed by Huszár's Münzkatalog Ungarn (H#), as this is the most detailed description. I will aim at adding all H# numbers, so it will be easy to search them. Note that multiple H# number might corresponde to one ÉH# number
c) After 1600, the KM# will follow as last, since it is usually vague. Note that usually more KM# number relates to an ÉH#, so if you look for a coin by KM# number, you might find 2-3 or even more items.

4) Currency exchange rates are taken into consideration, as a best average for the era, therefore it is not reflecting proper exchange rates (see post above) of a given time, but rather serves as a tool to ensure that at least the ratios are fairly close to reality. Providing exact ratios would require a new currency for every year :)

Please, comment if you have any suggestions,
Imre
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 5558
No suggestion, just simple: Good work! B)
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Kingdom of Bohemia.
Peter M. Graham
Joined: 1-Jul-2015
Posts: 896
Quote: "Jarcek"​No suggestion, just simple: Good work! B)
​I agree. Really good work.

I'm going to browse the catalogue now and maybe pick something up this weekend at the Torex coin show this weekend.
http://www.torex.net/torex_coin_show/index.html
We were so busy deciding whether we could, we never asked ourselves whether we should!
ashlobo Numista team
Joined: 30-Sep-2013
Posts: 878
Quote: "Peter M. Graham"
Quote: "Jarcek"​No suggestion, just simple: Good work! B)
​​I agree. Really good work.

​I'm going to browse the catalogue now and maybe pick something up this weekend at the Torex coin show this weekend.
http://www.torex.net/torex_coin_show/index.html
​Hey Peter, I'll be there on sunday as I'm going to the auto show tomorrow. Let me know and atleast we can say hi to each other :-)
Outings administrator
krezga
Joined: 24-Jun-2017
Posts: 45
Hello guys!

Finally I get these two new books:

Az Árpád-kori magyar pénzek katalógusa I. - Catalogue of Árpádian Coinage I. by Csaba Tóth, József Géza Kiss, András Fekete (Martin Opitz Kiadó, Budapest, 2018)

Az Árpád-kori magyar pénzek katalógusa II. - Catalogue of Árpádian Coinage I. by Csaba Tóth, József Géza Kiss (Martin Opitz Kiadó, Budapest, 2018)

At the moment this books have the newest information about the Árpádian coins, I try to add the new catalogue numbers, and the new coins (latest founds) as well to the numista catalogue.

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