Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 20:03
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Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 20:03
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Dear fellows,
While adding some new Salzburger gold coins, I came through a problem I had always set aside : how many Thaler is a Ducat (3,5 g fine gold) worth ? Meaning for the catalogue, which value do we put in the line "Face value in figure form" ???
2 aspects of the problem: the historical reality, but that, we will never know, and it varied in time probably, and 2, it determines the order of the coins in the catalogue (unimportant when there are 1 or 2 but ennoying when there are 50).
I went through our catalogue and I found about anything: examples:
Austria Habsburg: early part, 1 ducat for 2 Thalers, and Gulden period, 1 for 4.66 Gulden (that is 1 for 2.33 Thaler).
Salzburg: all set to 1:4.66 (I did that by imitation a while ago without much thought
).
German States: you can find there all you want from 1.66 to 4.66, with 2.75, 3, 4/3. Even within the same state (eg Saxony, 4/3 to 3).
Transylvania: anything from 1 to 10 ! and in a total disorder.
I found in Hungary 2 ducats = 9.32 Thaler
etc in all the Thaler world.
I found only one reference in Zöttl for Salzburg in the 16th century where he gives a Ducat at 105 Kreuzer when the Thaler was at 72 or 60. So around 1.5 ratio. But no other info in my books.
Anyone can help with references ?
Any idea to clean this up ? I would suggest a simplification ... but not too far from reality.
Regards,
André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Jarcek
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Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 20:17
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Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 20:17
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I want to know how this ends up!
Last option is artifficial value. See Exonumia Bullion - US where I separated them by metal and weight using these values. It looks neat, but the value field is crazy mess. Maybe it is better than to have mess in actual listings.
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Idolenz
Joined: 13-Jul-2013
Posts: 6589
Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 21:28
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Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 21:28
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The problem is that the ducat is quite similar to a 1 ounce buillon coin. Over the centuries it always contained around 3,44g of pure gold but the thaler had many different silver contents in that time frame.
In the same regards today you can't say a 1 ounce silver bullion is always worth 16 US dollars.
chomp-master
Joined: 10-Mar-2015
Posts: 5744
Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 22:46
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Posted: 28-Sep-2016, 22:46
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Following to register as well in Lorraine/Metz and any other gold issues I'd find for Lorraine.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 5-Oct-2016, 10:15
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Posted: 5-Oct-2016, 10:15
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Hello,
Up to try to solve this after realizing it is the same problem (and mess) on French catalogue "France kingdom".
It will be anyway an artificial value (because of the changes in value).
The question is whether
1. we put a totally crazy value only for sorting purposes, ex. start at 10, so that all the gold is isolated from the silver coinage (result a bit like what Krause has with the "Trade coinage"),
2. or if we try a reasonable value (ex. 3 thaler for a ducat, which was probably true at some time), and this mixes gold and silver coinage (we have some 1/8 ducat coins).
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
January First-of-May
Joined: 10-Apr-2016
Posts: 887
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 03:30
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 03:30
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To be honest, I'd just do what is, IIRC, done for modern bullion: make the ducats a separate currency.
So, e.g., we'll have "Salzburg - Thaler" and then "Salzburg - Ducat". And same for Transylvania and whatever.
(Of course, if some place's ducats actually show a value in some non-ducat currency, we might need to put them with that currency. But, as far as I understand, this did not happen very often, if ever.)
Jarcek
Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:22
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:22
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Austria-Habsburg
Austrian States
German States
Lorraine
Italian States
Bohemia
Livonia
Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth
Poland
Hungarian States
Hungary
Liechtenstein
Liege
Netherland
Scotland
Spanish Netherlands
Sweden
Swiss cantons
Which concerned country I left out?
It is pretty far-reaching trouble.
Catalogue administrator
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:39
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:39
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Hello,
Apuking gave on the french forum (similar discussion) this interesting link:
http://www.hagen-bobzin.de/hobby/waehrungen.html
It is useful if we divide all countries by the currencies (see Bavaria), according to the monetary reforms. A bit like what is done with modern coins, see for ex. Brazil (7 currencies in the last 60 years).
But a bit of work. Challenging.
André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Jarcek
Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:43
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 20:43
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In the new country system, all those current "countries shown as currencies" will be shown as separate.
So this would actually have to be done anyway.
Could you please translate my answer to the French forum too?
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apuking
Joined: 31-Oct-2012
Posts: 8689
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 21:46
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 21:46
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I have started to work on this issue and make seperations for currency system changes.
ex: Medieval coins from Bavaria had a complete different system compared to 19th century Gulden coins.
I just found out yesterday that our two moderators and Xavier have the power to add a line under the Currency name where you can write the whole monetary exchange system.
ex: 1 Ducat = 2 Taler = 3.5 Gulden = 14 Schilling... (Invented example)
Im very busy with my life at the moment but I plan to work on that in the coming months with Jarek and Chomp.
I found a lot of information on monetary systems during the past centuries for different states in Germany but for some I am struggling to find any info.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Jarcek
Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 21:47
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 21:47
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Damn, communication is the key it seems. Take your time, everytime you say a word, we can add it there or change it.
Catalogue administrator
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 22:14
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 22:14
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So it seems, from the way the discussion goes, a bit beyond the initial question
, that the answer will be to cut in slices the "countries" that exist over long periods according to monetary reforms, and hence large gold coins will naturally find their place with ratios reasonably close to their real values.
Shall that be enough to close the post ?
Fine for me !
I propose to open a new one soon (or revive an old one) on currencies management !
It would be nice to exchange on what we find on monetary systems over time right ?
Regards, André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Jarcek
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Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 22:18
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Posted: 6-Oct-2016, 22:18
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There was a thread for reporting problems about currencies:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic51506.html
But your aim is little about something different. Maybe there could be a new one?
Catalogue administrator
chomp-master
Joined: 10-Mar-2015
Posts: 5744
Posted: 7-Oct-2016, 09:57
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Posted: 7-Oct-2016, 09:57
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Interesting link Apuking. Too bad I didn't find exactly what to use for my own country in those links (Lothringen, Bistrum Metz, Bistrum Toul, Bistrum Verdun...)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 15:34
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 15:34
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Hello all.
Nothing new since then.
Just to ask your opinions again now that the new countries/currencies system is established.
I see that in most case it did not solve the question of real value of Ducat vs Thaler, set to a constant over 500 years in many cases. The idea to cut countries in time slices is hard due to large gaps in knowledge.
Considering previous remarks on the comparison with bullion, I am strongly tempted to add a separate currency. Basis the ducat ie 3.4-3.5 g gold, which is common to most countries.
Regards,
André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
nthn
Joined: 2-Mar-2015
Posts: 1895
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:14
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:14
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What we (jokinen) did for Venice under Italian states was to separate the currencies into 1-2 century-covering currencies, and added the approximate value during that period for thd Ducat's value. So even though the value of a ducat varied according to the Scudo, they were still displayed correctly even though they had different values over the centuries.
So what I am saying is maybe all (at least some) of those varied values are correct, but for different time periods. Not sure about your exact situation though.
Jokinen was the expert for all of that, I will send him a link to this thread.
Jarcek
Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:30
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:30
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Just stopped by to say that secondary solution is permissible solution.
Subdivisions could show the ratio if known and country introduction could explain it.
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nthn
Joined: 2-Mar-2015
Posts: 1895
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:33
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:33
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Quote: "Jarcek"Just stopped by to say that secondary solution is permissible solution.
Subdivisions could show the ratio if known and country introduction could explain it.
Seperate country (Venice Ducats) or currency (Venice - Ducats)?
Jarcek
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Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:37
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:37
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Currency. After all, some countries have separate modern "Trade coinage" and Ducats were traded in similar way - their value was known then but was fluid over time in comparison to silver.
When done this way, I guess users should also get explanation in the country introduction.
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Jarcek
Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 12177
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:37
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 20:37
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Also, if value is known, they do not have to be separated.
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jokinen
Joined: 10-Feb-2013
Posts: 1858
Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 21:02
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Posted: 12-Oct-2017, 21:02
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Nice topic :-)
First a bit of history:
The fiest gold Ducat was minted by Venice inspired by the Byzantine Hyperpyron, which literally means 'very pure' in Greek. The Venetians derived the name from the Latin word Dux, which is cognate to Venetian Doge and English word Duke.
The Venetian Ducat had a purity of .986 and weighed 3.43 grams, and through the vast Venetian trading network quickly became a trusted standard. The Florentine Fiorino d'Oro was in turn inspired by it, but in many other places, including Hungary, German States and the Low Countries, Ducats were minted with the same weight and purity for many centuries, while other units of accounts generally devalued over time, usually due to costly wars or otherwise because of overspending governments.
By the 19th century the Ducat had become a trading coinage only, as other standards replaced the old monetary systems purely based on precious metal contents. And in modern times gold Ducats are still minted, but targeted at bullion investors or coin collectors.
When I try to estimate the value of gold Ducats in pre-19th century coinage I usually compare purities and weights and assume a 16:1 gold silver ratio. For medieval coinage I even use a ratio closer to 10:1 to at least have a decent estimate. Of course I also scan for all kinds of sources that I can find on the web in order to identify their values.
So a Thaler was often around 24 grams of pure silver, depending on the standard used. It would be equal to 1.5 grams of gold so a Ducat was approx. 2.25 Thaler.
As for modern gold Ducats (e.g. 19th century Dutch trade coinage), I believe it's fair to say that they are better off as a separate currency 'Trade Coinage'.
Ecapoe
Joined: 7-Dec-2013
Posts: 2643
Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 18:22
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Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 18:22
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Hello,
Thanks Jokinen.
I read somewhere that rulers of the Holy Empire had abandoned the link between silver and gold very early in the 1500s, silver generally fluctuating more than gold.
I like the 2.25 ratio. It is reasonably realistic and orders quite nicely the coins in our lists. In fact only fractions of ducats get mixed with multiple thalers, but that does not make too much mess.
I think I'll put that slowly in all the older Austrian catalogues.
Regards,
André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Referee for Austria-Habsburg, Austrian Netherlands, Austrian States, Bohemia, Silesia.
Traducteur, demandez en cas de besoin ! Translator, ask if you need !
Stavros
Joined: 30-Dec-2014
Posts: 565
Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 19:28
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Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 19:28
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When adding the Ducats in the Norwegian catalogue, i´ve found that 1 Ducat equals 2 Speciedaler(which is the norwegian version of Thaler). These do get mixed up with the rest of the Dalers, but as these are only a few it does not create any mess.
Referee for Ancient Greece, Norway and the Kingdom of Cyprus
jokinen
Joined: 10-Feb-2013
Posts: 1858
Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 21:13
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Posted: 17-Oct-2017, 21:13
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You're welcome mate.
Values fluctuated indeed and Thaler weights as well. Some were 1/9th of a Mark and some 1/10th or 1/11th.
The gold silver ratio must have fluctuated somewhat but was pretty stable between 15.5 and 16 until the late 19th century.
jokinen
Joined: 10-Feb-2013
Posts: 1858
Posted: 30-Apr-2018, 22:58
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Posted: 30-Apr-2018, 22:58
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Now that I worked my way through reading a lot of German monetary history I can now come with a more detailed answer.
First of all the Ducat. It is typically a coin of 3.53 grams of .986 following the Hungarian standard, which corresponds to 3.48 grams pure gold. The gold to silver ratio was pretty stable at 15.5 from the 17th century until 1870. So a ducat corresponded with 53.95 grams of silver.
The Cologne Mark had a weight of 233.856 grams. So a Ducat was 0.231 Cologne Mark of silver, which meant that a Cologne Mark was approximately equal 4⅓ or 13/3 Ducats
Now we can apply this to the different Thaler standards:
From 1542 there were 9 Thalers in a Mark, which means a Ducat would correspond to 27/13 or 2 1/13 (2.077) Thaler.
The Zinnaer agreement in 1667 set the Thaler to 10½ per Mark. Now a Ducat was 63/26 or 2 11/26 (2.423) Thaler.
The Leipzig agreenent of 1687 set the Thaler to 12 per Mark: 36/13 or 2 10/13 (2.77) Thaler per Ducat.
The Conventionsthaler introduced in 1753 was at 10 per Mark, with the Thaler unit of account devalued to 13⅓ per Mark, so that 4/3 Thaler was a Conventionsthaler. A Ducat now was equal to 30/13 or 2 4/13 (2.307) Conventionsthaler or 40/13 or 3 1/13 (3.077) Thaler unit of account.
The Prussian Thaler that was widely adopted by German states in 1838 was set at 14 per Mark. This made a Ducat worth 42/13 or 3 3/13 (3.231) Prussian Thalers. With the reform to Vereinsthaler in 1857 little changed, except that there were now 30 Thalers in a metric pound (500 grams). This implied a rate of 3.237 Ducats per Thaler.
But by that time a new gold coinage was introduced with the Goldkrone which was exactly 10 grams of pure gold. Using 15.5 gold to silver ratio this implied that a Goldkrone was equal to 9.3 Vereinsthaler.
stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 2824
Posted: 22-Mar-2020, 16:25
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Posted: 22-Mar-2020, 16:25
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I will revive this topic, because it is very interesting, and I will do here a summary of my research:
1485 - 1559: 1 Ducat ~ 1.5 Thaler
1559 - 1667: 1 Ducat ~ 2 Thaler
1667 - 1750: 1 Ducat ~2.5 Thaler
after 1750: 1 Ducat ~ 3+ Thaler
More in detail below:
The Ducat followed a pretty consistent standard:
1 Ducat: ~3.53g Au.986 ~ 3.48g Au.999
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻
The Thaler standards:
1486 Tyroler Guldiner
• 1 fine Mark (Tyrol) = 8 Guldiner
• 1 Guldiner = 31.89g Ag.937 = 29.9 fine Ag
• 1g Au = 11.58g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 1⅓ Guldiner
1500 Saxon Guldengroschen / Klappmützentaler
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 8 8/15 Guldengroschen
• 1 Guldengroschen = 29.23g Ag.937 = 27.41g fine Ag
•
1g Au ~11.9 g Ag
•
1 Ducat = 1½ Guldengroschen
1505 Saxon Guldengroschen
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 8 ⅗ Guldengroschen
• 1 Guldengroschen = 29.232g Ag.930 = 27.202g fine Ag
•
1g Au ~12g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 1½ Guldengroschen
1536 Joachimstaler
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 8 8/15 Joachimstaler
• 1 Joachimstaler = 29.232g Ag.903 = 26.39g fine Ag
•
1g Au = ~ 12.5g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 1⅗ Joachimstaler
1559, 1566 Reichsmünzordnung
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 9 Speciesthaler
• 1 Speciesthaler = 29.23g Ag.889 = 25.99g fine Ag
• 1 Reichsthaler (unit of account) = ¾ Speciesthaler
•
1g Au ~ 13 g Ag
• 1 Ducat =
2 Speciesthaler (= 2⅔ Reichsthaler)
1667 Zinnaer agreement
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 10½ Thaler
• 1 Thaler = 22.272g fine Ag
•
1g Au ~ 14.75g Ag
•
1 Ducat = 2.3 Thaler
1690 Leipzig agreenent
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 12 Thaler
• 1 Thaler = 19.488g fine Ag
• 1g Au = 14.94g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 2⅔ Thaler
1726 French Écu standard
• 1 Mark (Paris) 916‰ = 8 3/10 Écu
• 1 Écu = 29.488g Ag.917 = 27.03g fine Ag
•
1g Au = 15.15 g Ag
• 1 Ducat ~ 2 Écu
1748 Austrian Imperial Thaler
• 1 Mark (Cologne) 833.33‰ = 10 Thaler
• 1 Thaler = 28.063g Ag.833 = 23.386g fine Ag
• 1g Au = 15.11 g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 2¼ Thaler
1753 Conventionsthaler (mostly in North Germany)
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 10 Thaler
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 13⅓ Conventionsthaler
• 1 Thaler = 23.39g fine Ag
• 1 Conventionsthaler = 17.54g fine Ag
• 4/3 Thaler = 1 Conventionsthaler
•
1g Au = 14.54g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 2⅙ Thaler
• 1 Ducat = 2⅞ Conventionsthaler
1755 Kronenthaler (Austrian Netherlands mostly)
• 1 Mark (Vienna) 871.53‰ = 9½ Thaler
• 1 Thaler = 29.54g Ag.872 = 25.75g fine Ag
• 1g Au = 15.68 g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 2 Kronenthaler
• After 1800, there were 7 different, but very similar standards in different states
1750 Prussian Thaler
• 1 fine Mark (Cologne) = 14 Thaler
• 1 Thaler = 22.272g Ag.750 = 16.7g fine Ag
• 1g Au = 14.55g Ag in 1750 = 15.27g Ag in 1857
• 1 Ducat = 3 Thaler (1750) = 3⅕ Thaler (1857)
• After 1750, there were 9 different, but very similar standards in different states
1857 Vereinsthaler
• 1 fine Pound (metric) = 30 Vereinsthaler
• 1 Vereinsthaler = 18.519g Ag.900 = 16.667g fine Ag
•
1g Au = 15.27g Ag
• 1 Ducat = 3⅕ Vereinsthaler
• 1 Goldkrone (10g Au.999) = 2.874 Ducat = 9⅙ Vereinsthaler
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻
Weight standards:
1 Cologne Mark = 233.856 g
1 Paris Mark = 244.753 g
1 Tyrol Mark = 255.12 g
1 Vienna Mark = 280.668 g
1 Metric Pound = 500 g
⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻
Of course these values are not a fixed exchange rate and they fluctuated every day, but I think they give a good ballpoint figure for the Numista catalog sorting purposes.
best
strato
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