Globalists' War on Cash Includes Coins [solved]

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IMHO, a cashless society is a dark one for numismatics.
If paper currency is eliminated, then the elimination of coins must follow as night follow day.

As coin collectors, hobbyists and enthusiasts, I just want to bring this to your collective attention to think about .... perhaps this thread will become a little clearinghouse of information about this development.

There are many other reasons (privacy concerns, Big Brother/Police State centralized governmental control and abuse, further empowering of central banks, enriching certain credit card companies, financial chaos if the power grid/net are wrecked, etc., etc.) against total monetary digitalization.

Please, by all means, post your insights and links to meaningful articles!

Here's an interesting article : http://www.internationalman.com/articles/the-international-war-on-cash

excerpt:

"Along the way, it occurred to me that, at some point, governments might collectively attempt to eliminate paper currency in favour of an electronic currency - transferred from party to party solely through licensed banks. Sound farfetched? Well, maybe, but what if the U.S. and EU agreed on an overall plan, then suggested it to other governments? On the face of it, this smacks of conspiracy theory, yet certainly, all governments would benefit from this control and would be likely to get on board. In fact, it might prove to be the only way out of their present economic problems.

So, how would it play out? Here’s roughly how I saw Phase I:

Link the free movement of cash to terrorism (Create a consciousness that any movement of large sums suggests criminal activity.);

Establish upper limits on the amount of money that can be moved without reporting to some government investigatory agency;

Periodically lower those limits;

Accustom people to making all purchases, however small or large, through a bank card;

Create a consciousness that the mere possession of cash is suspect, since it’s no longer “necessary”."





Here's another .....




"One of the arguments against getting rid of cash is that once we become a fully cashless society then basically we have put big corporations even more in the center of our lives. Cash is the one way within our financial architecture to avoid both having our financial transactions skimmed off the top of by credit card companies, and it’s also a way to avoid basic scrutinies (sic) of our transactions. How powerful is that argument and will corporate power in a cashless society inevitably be abused?""

excerpted from: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/12/should_we_fear_a_cashless_society/
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Interesting that the source of the second article is Salon. There's not too much that can be agreed on in the political arena however it seems that Paulbot Libertarians and Salon Snowflakes are against this and for much the same reasons.

I only read the first article, the overabundance of earnest white knighting at Salon gives me a headache but I find nothing to disagree with, except maybe the timeline. I don't believe there is going to be much enthusiasm, at least in the US, outside of the metropolitan nightmares. It would be an easy way for them to stealthily transfer their unfunded liabilities to the more fiscally solvent rural areas.

In terms of human happiness and freedom this should be opposed by any means necessary.

In numismatic terms it should be equally opposed. The obvious reason being - no coins = no coin collecting. However there's an equally alarming proposition..... I'm certain that the vast majority will continue to distrust big government and will be horrified to find their wealth at the mercy of a rapacious bureaucracy. There will be a rush to transfer cash into commodities, mostly gold and silver. Bartering, even if made illegal will become the norm. With silver prices exceeding $1,000 per ounce there will be a lot of people cashing in their collections to the smelters or prising out the coins to trade for a sack of potatoes.

Each time the price of silver reached $50 per ounce, in the 70's and in the first decade of the 21st century, the supply of vintage coins was depleted. Especially at the lower end of the market where new collectors first get their feet wet. With a price jump into previously unheard of territory the stock of coins will be permanently decimated and numismatics will become the pastime of the elite.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
-Most illuminating response by pnightingale


Alongside their course of steadily heading to their own cultural and demographic suicide, the Swedes seem to be leading the Europeans in the marginalization/elimination of cash.

This rather alarming article is over a year old: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/04/sweden-cashless-society-cards-phone-apps-leading-europe


excerpt (emphasis added):


"Swedish buses have not taken cash for years, it is impossible to buy a ticket on the Stockholm metro with cash, retailers are legally entitled to refuse coins and notes, and street vendors – and even churches – increasingly prefer card or phone payments.

According to central bank the Riksbank, cash transactions made up barely 2% of the value of all payments made in Sweden last year – a figure some see dropping to 0.5% by 2020. In shops, cash is now used for barely 20% of transactions, half the number five years ago, and way below the global average of 75%.
And astonishingly, about 900 of Sweden’s 1,600 bank branches no longer keep cash on hand or take cash deposits – and many, especially in rural areas, no longer have ATMs. Circulation of Swedish krona has fallen from around 106bn in 2009 to 80bn last year."
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
As a numismatist I see this as a fascinating era. Coming decades may be the last ones of history of coins and I'm witnessing it.

As a citizen I'm concerned about the security issues of cashless society. What about thieves and technical black outs?

As a collector I'm happy that I can even now buy coins at a lower prices (below face) as there are less collectors. When prices are down, many basic coins will be melted down and maybe some day the rest are worth something again.
trouble ahead. all 'bitcoins' are invisible! :snif:
Jamais l'or n'a perdu la plus petite occasion de se montrer stupide. -Balzac
Yeah then we can all just collect Bitcoin!
Quote: "nthn"​Yeah then we can all just collect Bitcoin!
​I'll trade you my

1181881885018850e18850ee18850eei18850eeiw18850eeiw418850eeiw4918850eeiw49518850eeiw4959

for your
110101101110119101191101191i101191i4101191i44101191i443101191i4432101191i4432e101191i4432ei101191i4432eir101191i4432eir2

That way I'll can complete my "....eir2" series!
I've always found it amazing that someone (or some thing? I'm looking at you, future robot overlords) could literally just make up a currency out of thin air and the masses were so quick to buy in to it.

I know all our currency today is imaginary but at least with that the transition was slow and subtle enough that I could see people not even realising they've made the adjustment. But Bitcoin is amazing. It's literally imaginary money. It's a walking talking oxymoron in the form of a currency.

What would our ancestors think?
BTC for sale by the way. z)
Quote: "MonaSeaclaid"​I've always found it amazing that someone (or some thing? I'm looking at you, future robot overlords) could literally just make up a currency out of thin air and the masses were so quick to buy in to it.

​I know all our currency today is imaginary but at least with that the transition was slow and subtle enough that I could see people not even realising they've made the adjustment. But Bitcoin is amazing. It's literally imaginary money. It's a walking talking oxymoron in the form of a currency.

​What would our ancestors think?
​Well, I don't think Bitcoin has gained any real appeal with "the masses". Personally, even though I am familiar with and interested in the cryptography issues surrounding Bitcoin, the whole thing pretty much puzzles me.

It's interesting how money has evolved. First was precious metals that represented a physical transfer of a prized commodity. Then came paper money that still represented that somewhere out there a bank was storing an equivalent amount of actual silver or gold "in your name". Theoretically, you could always cash in your banknotes for actual physical metal.

Now we have money that only represents value by general consensus. Perhaps it's not that bizarre. Is it really fundamentally different to say that we all agree that $15 buys a person a decent lunch compared to saying $15 buys one ounce of this arbitrary metal? And historians will tell you that fiat money has not led to any more economic instability that gold/silver-backed money.

Still, there's an intuitive appeal to the idea of money that actually represents a physical store of value, and not just the "good faith" of the government, which I'm never fully confident of...
It was more the mass acceptance than general appeal that I was talking about than actual use. Though I think it's used more than I think.

I'm also wary of putting so much into the good faith of the government, rather than something tangible. But the way I see it, if the government's currency has become completely worthless then any reserve out there is getting raided pretty quick, so I'm not getting my cut regardless. We'll go back to some sort of barter system and, if video games are correct, I'll end up as some sort of badass mercenary who ends up saving the world.

It's a win for me either way.
Quote: "Jesse11"​​​Well, I don't think Bitcoin has gained any real appeal with "the masses". Personally, even though I am familiar with and interested in the cryptography issues surrounding Bitcoin, the whole thing pretty much puzzles me.

​I woud think for most users the appeal is simply the possibility to make money off it, buying bitcoins just like you would buy stocks or bet on sports in the hope to cash out later. Of course people are also using it because it's ideal for shady stuff, but I'm not enough of a cynic not to hope plain old greed outnumbers nefarious schemes :°

Anyway, given how quickly people have agreed to provide corporations with more and more of their personal data through various means and to wear a tracker/camera/microphone on them day in and day out, all for convenience's sake, I'm really not hopeful in the outcome of the fight for privacy. Already it isn't worth anything to millenials.

On a related (but lighter) note, I was watching the Toronto tennis tournament, and the traditional coin toss has been replaced with an electronic thing that does something I didn't fully get then displays the name of the winner on a screen B.
They're really hunting down any and every coin 8~
If loose fiscal policies, counterfeiting or just plain theft were bad when we had a legitimate, non debased currency just imagine how bad it's going to be when our wealth exists only as a series of binary numbers stored in some far away server.

I reckon I will have to use these new types of currencies where the government forces me to do so. Where there's an alternative I'll be happy to take it.

I'm really starting to dislike the 21st century. I think I'll just opt out and reset my personal clock to the early 1900's.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
http://www.ibtimes.com/norways-biggest-bank-calls-country-stop-using-cash-2276140

excerpt:

"The largest bank in Norway has called for the country to stop using cash, the Local reported Friday. This comes as the latest move in a country that has been leading the global charge toward electronic money in recent years, with several banks already not offering cash in their branch offices and some industries seeking to cut back on paper currency.

DNB, the bank with the proposal, has said eliminating the use of cash would cut down on black market sales and crimes such as money laundering.

“Today, there is approximately 50 billion kroner in circulation and [the country’s central bank] Norges Bank can only account for 40 percent of its use. That means that 60 percent of money usage is outside of any control. We believe that is due to under-the-table money and laundering,” Trond Bentestuen, a DNB executive, told Norwegian website VG, the Local reported.

“There are so many dangers and disadvantages associated with cash, we have concluded that it should be phased out,” he added.

The country has already moved in this direction naturally. Bentestuen estimated that about 6 percent of Norwegians use cash on a daily basis, with the numbers higher among elderly people."
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
"After Alibaba declared the first week of August “Cashless Week” and WeChat answered by naming August 8 “Cashless Day” and this entire month “Cashless Month,” a new research was published to illustrate how mobile payments are becoming a part of Chinese people’s everyday life.

The Tencent Research Institute along with Ipsos research group and the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies at Renmin University of China (RDCY) have analysed the penetration and trends of cashless payments in China. The research titled “2017 Mobile Payment Usage in China” published by China Tech Insights is based on WeChat Pay data and an online survey of 6,595 respondents. Here are some of their key insights"

excerpted from:

https://e27.co/rise-chinas-cashless-society-mobile-payments-trends-2017-20170816/


"It’s still unusual for a business to not accept cash, but it’s definitely true that Canadians are using cash less than before. A Bank of Canada survey, conducted in 2013, found that 44 per cent of the total number of transactions were done using cash. That’s 10 per cent less than in 2009.

Moneris, a company that processes credit and debit transactions, predicts that by 2030, only 10 per cent of money spent in Canada will be in cash. In 2013, it was 23 per cent, according to the Bank of Canada."


excerpted from:
http://globalnews.ca/news/3664317/cashless-society-canada/
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Interesting how one of the companies that run cashless payment systems declares a cashless week (can I declare a week too?), and the other raises one cashless month and a "research" that shows cashless is trendy.
  Really going for that piece of the pie are we...
I would take a prediction by the company who makes money processing digital transactions with a grain of salt. But it is definitely trending in that direction.
Brian and MonaS, right you are!

The banksters with the biggest self-interests are pushing the cashless (and coinless!!!) mantra-meme as 'inevitable'!

interesting article: http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=28585

excerpt:


"The Vancouver Sun article quotes Kit and Ace spokeswoman Anna Cordon as saying Kit and Ace stores in North America, Great Britain and Australia have all gone cashless. “We don’t have phones on the shop floor, and we don’t accept cash … Our goal is to save people time and remove clutter while shopping.”


Not everyone agrees. Credit card companies charge merchants at least 1.5 percent on each transaction. Canadian Federation of Independent Business Executive Vice President recently said, “For a small business on a slim margin, these can be big costs. Customers are usually very aware of their own fees, but they are often unaware [that] when a business takes credit card transactions, business owners are paying fees, as well.”

A recent European Central Bank survey indicates that coins and bank notes are still favored for most point of sale payments. Another survey yet to be published shows that more than 75 percent of all point of sale payments within the European Union are made in physical euros. The value of these cash transactions is slightly more than half the value of all transactions.

“Even in this digital age, cash remains essential in our economy,” said ECB President Mario Draghi.

South Korea took a big step away from using coins on April 20, when the Bank of Korea announced customers at selected stores can now receive their small change on prepaid cards rather than in cash. A recent BOK survey indicates two-thirds of those surveyed don’t carry coins, and half of those polled support a coinless society.

One of the greatest arguments posed in favor of retaining physical cash is privacy. Is Big Brother watching? Could Big Brother seize or freeze all your cash assets if all currency is digitized?"
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Quote: "SteveV"​If paper currency is eliminated, then the elimination of coins must follow as night follow day.​
​I do believe though that the coins will disappear before the paper money, since the paper money is cheaper to produce and takes no space and weighs nothing.
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Top 10 Cashless Countries: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/which-are-the-world-s-most-cashless-countries.html


excerpt:
"In Belgium, France, and Canada over 90% of consumer payments are made via cashless modes. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, and the US also have high rates of consumer payments (80% and over) made via non-cash modes. Germany and South Korea also use cashless payments as the major mode of consumer payments. The latter is the only Asian country featuring in the list of the top 10 cashless societies while no country from Africa or South America finds a position in the list. Only time will tell if Indian citizens also favor cashless transaction methods over cash transactions and the effects of cashless transactions on the Indian society and economy."
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
I have well over 13,000 coins and I don't think I have ever paid cash for any of them.
Quote: "SteveV"​Top 10 Cashless Countries: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/which-are-the-world-s-most-cashless-countries.html


​excerpt:
​"In Belgium, France, and Canada over 90% of consumer payments are made via cashless modes. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, and the US also have high rates of consumer payments (80% and over) made via non-cash modes. Germany and South Korea also use cashless payments as the major mode of consumer payments. The latter is the only Asian country featuring in the list of the top 10 cashless societies while no country from Africa or South America finds a position in the list. Only time will tell if Indian citizens also favor cashless transaction methods over cash transactions and the effects of cashless transactions on the Indian society and economy."

I don't think that will happen in our lifetime for several reasons, but the main factor is that people don't want to declare a lot of their payments/receipts so that they can avoid taxation (just 2% of employed people pay an Income tax). This permeates in various sectors of the economy from your basic retail store to real estate and more. Its a cultural thing re-inforced with a deliberately opaque bureaucratic system. However, as digital infrastructure continues to roll out and when the loopholes are completely closed to circumvent the system, that's when people will grudgingly accept paying/receiving money electronically.
Now the question is how quickly the infrastructure will be rolled out, and how determined are the relevant authorities are to actually use the information to crack down on offenders. Like i said before, its a cultural thing and the best we can hope for is a gradual evolution. Thats going to take generations
Outings administrator
Quote: "ashlobo"
Quote: "SteveV"​Top 10 Cashless Countries: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/which-are-the-world-s-most-cashless-countries.html
​​
​​
​​excerpt:
​​"In Belgium, France, and Canada over 90% of consumer payments are made via cashless modes. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, and the US also have high rates of consumer payments (80% and over) made via non-cash modes. Germany and South Korea also use cashless payments as the major mode of consumer payments. The latter is the only Asian country featuring in the list of the top 10 cashless societies while no country from Africa or South America finds a position in the list. Only time will tell if Indian citizens also favor cashless transaction methods over cash transactions and the effects of cashless transactions on the Indian society and economy."
​​
​​
​I don't think that will happen in our lifetime for several reasons, but the main factor is that people don't want to declare a lot of their payments/receipts so that they can avoid taxation (just 2% of employed people pay an Income tax). This permeates in various sectors of the economy from your basic retail store to real estate and more. Its a cultural thing re-inforced with a deliberately opaque bureaucratic system. However, as digital infrastructure continues to roll out and when the loopholes are completely closed to circumvent the system, that's when people will grudgingly accept paying/receiving money electronically.
​Now the question is how quickly the infrastructure will be rolled out, and how determined are the relevant authorities are to actually use the information to crack down on offenders. Like i said before, its a cultural thing and the best we can hope for is a gradual evolution. Thats going to take generations
​Only 2% of employed people pay income tax? Is that a typo?
Quote: "SRV5490"
Quote: "ashlobo"

​​I don't think that will happen in our lifetime for several reasons, but the main factor is that people don't want to declare a lot of their payments/receipts so that they can avoid taxation (just 2% of employed people pay an Income tax). This permeates in various sectors of the economy from your basic retail store to real estate and more. Its a cultural thing re-inforced with a deliberately opaque bureaucratic system. However, as digital infrastructure continues to roll out and when the loopholes are completely closed to circumvent the system, that's when people will grudgingly accept paying/receiving money electronically.
​​Now the question is how quickly the infrastructure will be rolled out, and how determined are the relevant authorities are to actually use the information to crack down on offenders. Like i said before, its a cultural thing and the best we can hope for is a gradual evolution. Thats going to take generations
​​Only 2% of employed people pay income tax? Is that a typo?
​No, you read that right! Farmers do not pay income tax (about 65% of people fall under this category). Further, you do not pay taxes if you earn less than Rs.250K in a year(or maybe the limit has been increased). Thats a significant chunk of the population in general. Only 12% of the work force is employed in the "organised" sector of the economy. The rest are business men or self employed. But don't be mistaken, even professionals like doctors and lawyers may insist on cash or some proportion of it so that they can under report their income. Really, the 2% who are paying are white (and some blue) collar professionals employed with large organisations who have their taxes deducted at source; so they have no opportunity to avoid it.

Its unfortunate indeed since taxation rates in India are at an all time low historically and in a global context too. However, the Union Govt just introduced a (relatively) simplified General Sales Tax on most goods and services. So perhaps the govt will be able diversify away from its current high dependence on corporate tax
Outings administrator
I failed to read the prior posts and did not realize that you were referring to India. Still, 2%, wow!
Apparently the cashless/coinless schema is meeting resistance in Singapore:


excerpt:

"In high-tech Singapore, where cashless payment options abound, consumers prefer to fish for physical notes and jiggle coins to pay for goods and services.

Last year, six out of 10 consumer transactions were made in cash here - a huge spanner in the works for Singapore's Smart Nation drive.

In his National Day Rally speech on Sunday, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong contrasted Singaporeans' highly connected lifestyle and digital literacy with their unwillingness to go digital when it comes to payment. As such, Singapore lags behind other cities on this front."

http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/can-singapore-catch-up-in-race-to-go-cashless
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
"Korea is gearing up to move to a so-called “coinless society,” with the central bank announcing plans to pilot a service in which consumers would get change back from merchants onto a prepaid card.

According to a report, the central bank in Korea had been mulling the idea for more than a year and said the move is deigned to “ease the inconvenience of using and carrying coins and reduce the social costs incurred in their circulation and management.”"

excerpted from: http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/korea-testing-putting-change-on-cards-to-move-to-coinless-society/
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
"Dubbed “Coinless Society,” the BOK’s project has got a lukewarm response from the public during its two months of operation. The project encourages users to store their change in public transportation cards, called T-Money, or receive convertible points for mobile payments.

The limited number of participating stores and security concerns are cited as the biggest hurdles to the project taking off.

Even the BOK admitted that most South Koreans -- both customers and store clerks -- were unaware of the project in a recent report. "

excerpted from:

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170621000562
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
"South Korea's central bank said Friday that it has picked four more companies for its coinless society project in the latest move aimed at enhancing convenience for ordinary people.

Under the project that began in April, consumers can deposit small change left from purchases of goods into prepaid mobile cards that can be used at convenience stores, discount stores and department stores, according to the Bank of Korea.

It means that consumers won't have to carry coins in their pockets after making cash payments."

excerpted from: http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170901000636


Yeah, right ....it's all about 'convenience' for the average person. What hokum!
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
You're missing the point here, mate. Actually I like the idea. You have no idea how much coins we're carrying around here. I've made payments of ₩3,000 with coins alone - where two of the coins were ₩500, the rest ₩100. The lowest denomination is ₩10. ₩1,000 = $1. I think water is the only thing that costs less than ₩1,000. 90% of the change you'll het is ₩100 coins, and you can easily end up with ₩2,000 in change during one day. That's pretty heavy I'll tell you.
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I get what you're saying Ngdawa ..... the Won is such a low value. It's like a U$ dollar = 1100 + Won.

But that's the problem, NOT coins per se.

Problem solved when the Won is revalued to something far less negligible.
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Quote: "SteveV"​I get what you're saying Ngdawa ..... the Won is such a low value. It's like a U$ dollar = 1100 + Won.

​But that's the problem, NOT coins per se.

​Problem solved when the Won is revalued to something far less negligible.
​what i mean is that everyday i go around with like 200 grams of coins in my pockets - if not more..that feels unreasonable..
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Interesting article by Saint Ron Paul:

http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/in-a-cashless-world-youd-better-pray-the-power-never-goes-out

Quite apart from being on point regarding the risks of a cashless society, check out the growth rate predictions for the Indian economy. While we're busy standing in awe over finally reaching 3% for the first time in years they're worried about 7%.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"​Interesting article by Saint Ron Paul:

http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/in-a-cashless-world-youd-better-pray-the-power-never-goes-out

​Quite apart from being on point regarding the risks of a cashless society, check out the growth rate predictions for the Indian economy. While we're busy standing in awe over finally reaching 3% for the first time in years they're worried about 7%.
​I won't disagree with the article. However, in India's case, there is much more beneath the surface than simply abolishing cash or trying to end corruption.

First off, even 7.4% GDP growth rates is not enough in a country where more than a million people are entering the job market every year. The growth rate to address those needs has to be closer to 11% (assuming we are not talking about jobless growth from automation or certain kinds of businesses that create very few but extremely high paying jobs). And this 11% has been badly needed for the last decade. So the country has been falling short all this time.

As far as this demonetization stunt went, it was announced all of a sudden ostensibly to catch illegal cash hoarders with their pants down. The Reserve bank of India stopped reporting the amount of cash that was getting returned well ahead of the deadline because they received more cash than was issued into circulation according to their own numbers. This doesn't even account for the cash still circulating in Nepal and Bhutan! Obviously the hoarders of fakecurrency and the like had no worries on their end.

The conspiracy story now gaining more currency is that the real aim of the BJP's demonetization ploy was to hit the now-opposition parties in the northern state of uttar pradesh since they would be more affected by it than the BJP. Sure enough, the BSP and SP parties became hamstrung and the BJP is now in power in that state which has huge consequences at the central level as UP is the largest state in India. The other supposed benefits of the demonetization drive have not materialised - corruption exists as spontaneously as it did before, there was a short spike in digital transactions that have come back to normal levels and all we have to show for it are new Banknotes which don't have any added security features, a new Rs2000 note that is ironic considering you want to stop hoarding, and an economy that has suffered in the short term for no clear gain
Outings administrator
"illegal cash hoarders" I just can't grasp this concept Ash. In my unsophisticated view once the government releases money via their central banks it should have no say in what you or I do with it. It becomes ours, not theirs I can be a good little consumer and spend it, hide it under my mattress or set fire to it as I see fit.

I do wonder, given the current trend of people demanding that government takes away more and more of their freedom, how long it will be until the definition of "illegal cash hoarder" expands to cover coin collectors? The US government has a sorry track record of confiscating valuable coins for the greater good.

From recent experience during the hurricane aftermath I can confirm the value of cash and the well meaning inefficiency of governments.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"​"illegal cash hoarders" I just can't grasp this concept Ash. In my unsophisticated view once the government releases money via their central banks it should have no say in what you or I do with it. It becomes ours, not theirs I can be a good little consumer and spend it, hide it under my mattress or set fire to it as I see fit.

​I do wonder, given the current trend of people demanding that government takes away more and more of their freedom, how long it will be until the definition of "illegal cash hoarder" expands to cover coin collectors? The US government has a sorry track record of confiscating valuable coins for the greater good.

​From recent experience during the hurricane aftermath I can confirm the value of cash and the well meaning inefficiency of governments.
I couldn't agree with you more. ​This can only happen in an era where more and more people see the goverment as a money creator, an "all-problems-solver", when in reality it is the exact opposite, it is a money's top consumer/destructor.
Quote: "pnightingale"​"illegal cash hoarders" I just can't grasp this concept Ash. In my unsophisticated view once the government releases money via their central banks it should have no say in what you or I do with it. It becomes ours, not theirs I can be a good little consumer and spend it, hide it under my mattress or set fire to it as I see fit.

​I do wonder, given the current trend of people demanding that government takes away more and more of their freedom, how long it will be until the definition of "illegal cash hoarder" expands to cover coin collectors? The US government has a sorry track record of confiscating valuable coins for the greater good.

​From recent experience during the hurricane aftermath I can confirm the value of cash and the well meaning inefficiency of governments.
​it’s not complex at all. Imagine you are buying an apartment for Rs1miliion. The owner will ask you to pay, for instance, Rs350k in “white” and Rs.650k in “black”. White is amount that the owner will declare to the tax authorities that he received from the sale of the house. The rest he’ll invest into another property where he would need to have “black” money on hand anyways. Or maybe he will send that Rs650k via hawala transaction (Money laundering) to Switzerland or some other place where they don’t ask many questions. It’s very rare for a household in India not to have some amount of black money on hand. It’s so much easier to under-declare your earnings when there are layers of bureaucracy and a lack of a digital trail. So I support the whole digitizations process as it’s a tragedy that only 2% of the population pays any income tax. However the demonetization drive was not the way to do it.
Outings administrator
I'm of the view that government is a necessary evil but yeah, it has to be funded and the cost should be shared by all. If you are not paying taxes then you have no skin in the game and no incentive to demand value for money. Personally I'd opt for a flat single tax on every adult in the country, no deductions, no loopholes or write offs. Simply divide the projected cost of running the government by the number of citizens of voting age and that's what everyone pays.

It's not a perfect idea but it's far better than the current model, either tax and borrow or as is currently fashionable, rely on a 4% growth rate to bridge the gap. That's great but what happens when the growth rate goes back to it's under 2% norm? The trends post 1945 are simply unsustainable.

We have drifted so far from sound fiscal policies that we accept a debased, worthless currency without question. I guess that a world without physical money is the conclusion but I find it very worrying on so many different levels. I wish we could turn the clock back to 1964, or 1947 in the UK, when our money had it's own value which couldn't be destroyed on the whim of a spiteful government, crooked banksters or by malicious cyber terrorists.

If governments delivered real value in return for our tax dollars, passed legislation for our benefit instead of the lobbyists then maybe they wouldn't have to resort to underhanded and tyrannical methods to attract funding.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
The bank of Sweden is planning for electronic coins.
http://www.riksbank.se/en/Press-and-published/Notices/2017/This-is-what-an-e-krona-could-look-like/
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "ashlobo"
Quote: "pnightingale"​"illegal cash hoarders" I just can't grasp this concept Ash. In my unsophisticated view once the government releases money via their central banks it should have no say in what you or I do with it. It becomes ours, not theirs I can be a good little consumer and spend it, hide it under my mattress or set fire to it as I see fit.
​​
​​I do wonder, given the current trend of people demanding that government takes away more and more of their freedom, how long it will be until the definition of "illegal cash hoarder" expands to cover coin collectors? The US government has a sorry track record of confiscating valuable coins for the greater good.
​​
​​From recent experience during the hurricane aftermath I can confirm the value of cash and the well meaning inefficiency of governments.
​​it’s not complex at all. Imagine you are buying an apartment for Rs1miliion. The owner will ask you to pay, for instance, Rs350k in “white” and Rs.650k in “black”. White is amount that the owner will declare to the tax authorities that he received from the sale of the house. The rest he’ll invest into another property where he would need to have “black” money on hand anyways. Or maybe he will send that Rs650k via hawala transaction (Money laundering) to Switzerland or some other place where they don’t ask many questions. It’s very rare for a household in India not to have some amount of black money on hand. It’s so much easier to under-declare your earnings when there are layers of bureaucracy and a lack of a digital trail. So I support the whole digitizations process as it’s a tragedy that only 2% of the population pays any income tax. However the demonetization drive was not the way to do it.
​Is it possible that the answer lies in the way people pay taxes instead? What I am saying here is maybe another topic for discussion I know. I just can't understand the concept behind black, ilegal money. How can it be if It was created, legally, in the first place? Now if I print it on my own, that would be bad, ilegal, I would be an ​"illegal cash hoarders" in that case.
Quote: "alex2037"
Quote: "ashlobo"

Quote: "pnightingale"​"illegal cash hoarders" I just can't grasp this concept Ash. In my unsophisticated view once the government releases money via their central banks it should have no say in what you or I do with it. It becomes ours, not theirs I can be a good little consumer and spend it, hide it under my mattress or set fire to it as I see fit.
​​​
​​​I do wonder, given the current trend of people demanding that government takes away more and more of their freedom, how long it will be until the definition of "illegal cash hoarder" expands to cover coin collectors? The US government has a sorry track record of confiscating valuable coins for the greater good.
​​​
​​​From recent experience during the hurricane aftermath I can confirm the value of cash and the well meaning inefficiency of governments.
​​Is it possible that the answer lies in the way people pay taxes instead? What I am saying here is maybe another topic for discussion I know. I just can't understand the concept behind black, ilegal money. How can it be if It was created, legally, in the first place? Now if I print it on my own, that would be bad, ilegal, I would be an ​"illegal cash hoarders" in that case.
If you print your our own own money and try to pass that off as central bank issued currency; then you’re a counterfeiter. An illegal cash hoarder is someone who does not declare his full earnings and then tries to funnel that undeclared “black” money into other off the books transactions. Maybe it’s hard to wrap ones head around this concept in North America and Western Europe; but this is extremely common place in much of Asia, the Middle East, Africa and large parts of South America.
I agree what we are talking about with the concerns of cash vs electronic is different from what I’m talking about (which I only brought up because Phil mentioned growth rates in India and the demonetization drive). However it is still linked in many ways. You can frame the most sound tax policies and procedures, but that mean nothing if people can simply under-report their earnings (imagine a Doctor charging you Rs500 for a consultation but reporting only Rs200 to the taxman. The patient usually gets his own benefit too such as cheaper medicines or preferential treatment). So then the question is how do you verify people are declaring their actual earnings... at some point you have to digitize certain areas of the funnel as cash moves from the central bank into people’s pockets. The authorities need to be able to track stuff. You can say that amounts to surveillance and the like, but its a give a and take for a country like India where people are accustomed to gaming the system. Do we need to abolish currency notes and coins; certainly not for this purpose, however it will invariably reduce hard currency in circulation as you force certain kinds transactions to become completely electronic
Outings administrator
I am just expressing an opinion here. We can all agree that the goverment doesn't create money, they don't own it. Money should equal the amount of value or goods a society has. If I am a member of that society, how can anyone say it is ilegal for me to keep a whatever portion I decide to keep underground in my backyard? It would be my choice, and ultimately my risk as well. Because by the way, not that I would do it myself, not paper money anyways.

Goverments should stop prosecuting cash, that's not the solution. Make people want to spend it instead, stop adding more complexity to the already ridiculously intrincated tax code, make laws that will make people want to declare exactly how much they made.

Come on, there are other ways.
Quote: "alex2037"​I am just expressing an opinion here. We can all agree that the goverment doesn't create money, they don't own it. Money should equal the amount of value or goods a society has. If I am a member of that society, how can anyone say it is ilegal for me to keep a whatever portion I decide to keep underground in my backyard? It would be my choice, and ultimately my risk as well. Because by the way, not that I would do it myself, not paper money anyways.

​Goverments should stop prosecuting cash, that's not the solution. Make people want to spend it instead, stop adding more complexity to the already ridiculously intrincated tax code, make laws that will make people want to declare exactly how much they made.

​Come on, there are other ways.
​Well, I don't have much more to add regarding how I described the situation in India. However, on another note, I'm not convinced the major threat comes from govt actually. I think it'll come from our own want for convenience. Let me explain with a very recent example...which happened yesterday infact. So my friends and I went up to the cottage for thanksgiving last weekend. We were a group of 7 and as you can imagine, we had all kinds of expenses from renting the cottage, to paying for gas, alchohol, food and what have you. It gets even more confusing when some people are vegetarian, some don't drink etc etc. We used an app called "Splitwise" which allowed us to simply log the $ amounts and allocate it to specific people. Once we returned, the app simply summarised who owes how much and to whom. We settled up by simple interac transfers. There was absolutely no cash involved. Even all the payments we had initially made were almost exclusively by credit card. Infact, I had no cash at all in my wallet the whole weekend.

My point being, that technology and habits of millenials will see the eventual death of cash anyways. Govts will not need to do anything. They just need to sit back and wait one generation (say 25years) and by then no one is going to miss the disappearance of cash as much as people don't really miss writing and posting letters to each other when you can do it on email or whatsapp/FB messenger/SMS etc.
Outings administrator
Quote: "ashlobo"
Quote: "alex2037"​I am just expressing an opinion here. We can all agree that the goverment doesn't create money, they don't own it. Money should equal the amount of value or goods a society has. If I am a member of that society, how can anyone say it is ilegal for me to keep a whatever portion I decide to keep underground in my backyard? It would be my choice, and ultimately my risk as well. Because by the way, not that I would do it myself, not paper money anyways.
​​
​​Goverments should stop prosecuting cash, that's not the solution. Make people want to spend it instead, stop adding more complexity to the already ridiculously intrincated tax code, make laws that will make people want to declare exactly how much they made.
​​
​​Come on, there are other ways.
​​Well, I don't have much more to add regarding how I described the situation in India. However, on another note, I'm not convinced the major threat comes from govt actually. I think it'll come from our own want for convenience. Let me explain with a very recent example...which happened yesterday infact. So my friends and I went up to the cottage for thanksgiving last weekend. We were a group of 7 and as you can imagine, we had all kinds of expenses from renting the cottage, to paying for gas, alchohol, food and what have you. It gets even more confusing when some people are vegetarian, some don't drink etc etc. We used an app called "Splitwise" which allowed us to simply log the $ amounts and allocate it to specific people. Once we returned, the app simply summarised who owes how much and to whom. We settled up by simple interac transfers. There was absolutely no cash involved. Even all the payments we had initially made were almost exclusively by credit card. Infact, I had no cash at all in my wallet the whole weekend.

​My point being, that technology and habits of millenials will see the eventual death of cash anyways. Govts will not need to do anything. They just need to sit back and wait one generation (say 25years) and by then no one is going to miss the disappearance of cash as much as people don't really miss writing and posting letters to each other when you can do it on email or whatsapp/FB messenger/SMS etc.
​I may have to completely agree with you there. I am ok with that, I call it evolution, things change.
Now please let it be a normal evolution, for good or bad, but let people choose it, don't make it ilegal. There has to be a difference between I choose to use the app and the goverment or someone forces me to. I am just talking about that difference.
Quote: "ashlobo"​​If you print your our own own money and try to pass that off as central bank issued currency; then you’re a counterfeiter. An illegal cash hoarder is someone who does not declare his full earnings and then tries to funnel that undeclared “black” money into other off the books transactions. Maybe it’s hard to wrap ones head around this concept in North America and Western Europe; but this is extremely common place in much of Asia, the Middle East, Africa and large parts of South America.
​I agree what we are talking about with the concerns of cash vs electronic is different from what I’m talking about (which I only brought up because Phil mentioned growth rates in India and the demonetization drive). However it is still linked in many ways. You can frame the most sound tax policies and procedures, but that mean nothing if people can simply under-report their earnings (imagine a Doctor charging you Rs500 for a consultation but reporting only Rs200 to the taxman. The patient usually gets his own benefit too such as cheaper medicines or preferential treatment). So then the question is how do you verify people are declaring their actual earnings... at some point you have to digitize certain areas of the funnel as cash moves from the central bank into people’s pockets. The authorities need to be able to track stuff. You can say that amounts to surveillance and the like, but its a give a and take for a country like India where people are accustomed to gaming the system. Do we need to abolish currency notes and coins; certainly not for this purpose, however it will invariably reduce hard currency in circulation as you force certain kinds transactions to become completely electronic


I agree it's important to make sure people pay taxes on what they earn: if you want to your keep their hard-earned money from the evil government, then you should be billed when you go to the hospital, when your kids go to school, when you use public roads, require the services of the police or firemen, etc. In not surprising that a country like Greece where no one pays taxes is in a dire economic situation.
In my country, your employer tells the IRS what you earned. If you're independent you have to back up your declaration of earnings with the bills you made.
So I wouldn't be against the government closely monitoring the revenue of people, but privacy big a price to pay. Once I've paid my taxes I want to be able to do whatever I want with my money (unless it's buying guns or drugs etc.) without the government or a bank or app company monitoring everything and taking a % on every transaction. "Drug dealers use cash" is a ridiculous argument, the same kind that is always used after a terror attack to attack our right to privacy. Plus there is no reason to believe crooks would not be able to cheat the system even with everything digitized.

Anyway the real problem with tax evasion (in Western countries anyway) is wealthy people and billion-dollar companies moving—sometimes legally—their money to/through tax paradise, not a few $100s worth of earnings under-reported every month or so by Joe Worker.
During my many years living in England I encountered very few people who could successfully avoid paying taxes. In the US however it's relatively common. Not on the same scale as in India but it's still quite a substantial number, more so in rural areas.

Apart from the obvious incentive of not paying taxes there are many people who work under the table to escape their child support obligations. At first glance this might seem pretty deplorable however the amounts awarded by the courts are simply unrealistic. $500 per month per child might not be much of a hardship for a wealthy man but for the working poor making just over $1000 it's just not possible, especially if there's more than one child.

I pay my taxes, I don't particularly like doing so, mainly because I don't care to fund wars or abortions, but I reckon it's the price we pay for living in a developed country. I do however have a great deal of sympathy for the genuinely poor for whom the tax burden can cause real hardship. Especially when a mega corporation like General Electric can get by with paying zero in taxes and the wealthy elites who are always demanding more and more government spending for their vanity projects can afford a team of very expensive tax lawyers to hide their own millions in offshore accounts.

Cash or virtual currency, it doesn't really matter when you have a complex tax code written by lobbyists that only the rich can navigate.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Quote: "pnightingale"​During my many years living in England I encountered very few people who could successfully avoid paying taxes. In the US however it's relatively common. Not on the same scale as in India but it's still quite a substantial number, more so in rural areas.

​Apart from the obvious incentive of not paying taxes there are many people who work under the table to escape their child support obligations. At first glance this might seem pretty deplorable however the amounts awarded by the courts are simply unrealistic. $500 per month per child might not be much of a hardship for a wealthy man but for the working poor making just over $1000 it's just not possible, especially if there's more than one child.

​I pay my taxes, I don't particularly like doing so, mainly because I don't care to fund wars or abortions, but I reckon it's the price we pay for living in a developed country. I do however have a great deal of sympathy for the genuinely poor for whom the tax burden can cause real hardship. Especially when a mega corporation like General Electric can get by with paying zero in taxes and the wealthy elites who are always demanding more and more government spending for their vanity projects can afford a team of very expensive tax lawyers to hide their own millions in offshore accounts.

​Cash or virtual currency, it doesn't really matter when you have a complex tax code written by lobbyists that only the rich can navigate.
​Again I just can't agree with you more. Fix taxation, that is the answer, make the companies pay what they have to while give them incentives to keep the money where it belongs.
Quote: "pnightingale"​During my many years living in England I encountered very few people who could successfully avoid paying taxes. In the US however it's relatively common. Not on the same scale as in India but it's still quite a substantial number, more so in rural areas.

​Apart from the obvious incentive of not paying taxes there are many people who work under the table to escape their child support obligations. At first glance this might seem pretty deplorable however the amounts awarded by the courts are simply unrealistic. $500 per month per child might not be much of a hardship for a wealthy man but for the working poor making just over $1000 it's just not possible, especially if there's more than one child.

​I pay my taxes, I don't particularly like doing so, mainly because I don't care to fund wars or abortions, but I reckon it's the price we pay for living in a developed country. I do however have a great deal of sympathy for the genuinely poor for whom the tax burden can cause real hardship. Especially when a mega corporation like General Electric can get by with paying zero in taxes and the wealthy elites who are always demanding more and more government spending for their vanity projects can afford a team of very expensive tax lawyers to hide their own millions in offshore accounts.

​Cash or virtual currency, it doesn't really matter when you have a complex tax code written by lobbyists that only the rich can navigate.
​Also 100% agree. Just finished reading "The Fair Tax Book: Saying Goodbye to the Income Tax and the IRS". I highly recommend it.
I've tried to ignore this thread before, but seeing as it refuses to die quietly, I thought I'd suggest to some of our more strongly-opinionated members to at least try and use less partisan terms and phrases to at least not seem like so much of a typical political agitator.

Numista is really no place for politics, which is why forum mods tend to come down on threads that turn ugly. Therefore Numista is also no place for conservative sabre-rattling on issues that go above and beyond the scope of the site's specialty (numismatics). Titles that raise eyebrows like "Globalists' War on Cash Includes Coins", are blatantly not neutral, nor un-inflammatory. How hard is it to use sensible wording?

This being aimed particularly at the author of this topic, I give one more piece of evidence that this thread's origin was not of a neutral, un-partisan discussion in nature:

Alongside their course of steadily heading to their own cultural and demographic suicide, the Swedes seem to be leading the Europeans in the marginalization/elimination of cash.

Completely beside the point, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, and a clear sidetrack into political affairs that seem to accompany unpleasant agitating. I rest my case.
Quote: "CassTaylor"Alongside their course of steadily heading to their own cultural and demographic suicide, the Swedes seem to be leading the Europeans in the marginalization/elimination of cash.


​In case it wasn't clear, this is a quote from the beginning of this thread.
You're making a good point Cass, and this was also the reason to not contribute here even though I find the topic itself quite interesting, that is, the function of money in a time when all kinds of technology can make it more efficient (and cashless so to speak) but obviously creates new downsides.

I hardly ever use cash anymore. On a recent weekend trip to Oslo I did not see a single banknote or coin and I did not mind. Earlier I would easily lose 10% on FX conversion and be saddled with leftover local currency, besides the coins that I liked. Now I only get ripped off for 5% by my credit card provider and this will soon become a lot less.

I wonder what the new technologies of distributed ledger will mean for the function of money in the coming years. Don't get me wrong, I believe cryptocurrencies are a total scam fueled by optimism on a new technology, too low interest rates, a loss in confidence in institutions, and just plain greed and (so far profitable) stupidity. But the technologies behind them will evolve further to change the way we pay and store value in the future. This cannot be ignored. I believe it will make many smaller national currencies obsolete and will make doing business globally a lot easier than before.

And gold and silver? Those will remain in play whenever the institutions that take care of our money supply lose control. But if they do their job well, the money they produce, whether in banknotes and coins, electronic or in crypto, will remain the trusted unit of exchange.

And about Sweden, just go there. You will find out it's a pretty comfortable place compared to what Fox News is trying to make you believe. You can even get great food and totally drunk with only a card in your pocket :-)
I've just read through the whole thread, and to me it's not overly political at all. More economic history and discussion of taxation than anything else.

Happy for it to continue.
Quote: "oggy"​I've just read through the whole thread, and to me it's not overly political at all. More economic history and discussion of taxation than anything else.

​Happy for it to continue.
​I agree the general content by most users who replied, and 90% of the posts on the thread are non-problematic, which is why I wasn't asking for it to be shut down, but wished to make a point-out regarding the nature of the initial title and some posts of the member who authored it. B.
Quote: "jokinen"​You're making a good point Cass, and this was also the reason to not contribute here even though I find the topic itself quite interesting, that is, the function of money in a time when all kinds of technology can make it more efficient (and cashless so to speak) but obviously creates new downsides.

​I hardly ever use cash anymore. On a recent weekend trip to Oslo I did not see a single banknote or coin and I did not mind. Earlier I would easily lose 10% on FX conversion and be saddled with leftover local currency, besides the coins that I liked. Now I only get ripped off for 5% by my credit card provider and this will soon become a lot less.

​I wonder what the new technologies of distributed ledger will mean for the function of money in the coming years. Don't get me wrong, I believe cryptocurrencies are a total scam fueled by optimism on a new technology, too low interest rates, a loss in confidence in institutions, and just plain greed and (so far profitable) stupidity. But the technologies behind them will evolve further to change the way we pay and store value in the future. This cannot be ignored. I believe it will make many smaller national currencies obsolete and will make doing business globally a lot easier than before.

​And gold and silver? Those will remain in play whenever the institutions that take care of our money supply lose control. But if they do their job well, the money they produce, whether in banknotes and coins, electronic or in crypto, will remain the trusted unit of exchange.

​And about Sweden, just go there. You will find out it's a pretty comfortable place compared to what Fox News is trying to make you believe. You can even get great food and totally drunk with only a card in your pocket :-)
​Well said, and reflective of my own opinion on the subject as well! I'd certainly say that someone with more savoir-faire could have a more respected opinion than mine, but seeing your sound reasoning makes me a lot more confident in mine. But then again, Vive la difference!
I have to laugh at some of the more recent posts.

Hey, this forum is "Free Discussion" ... but PC people like to shut down what they can't deal with.

If you find this thread so utterly offensive, then simply stay out of it.

Start your own thread!

http://www.monea.me/lv-en/about-us/
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Quote: "SteveV"... but PC people like to shut down what they can't deal with.

​Oh noes, the liberal-fascist PC police are here! Whatever shall we do? :~

I quote myself previously;

"... I thought I'd suggest to some of our more strongly-opinionated members to at least try and use less partisan terms and phrases to at least not seem like so much of a typical political agitator."

And also;

"​I agree the general content by most users who replied, and 90% of the posts on the thread are non-problematic, which is why I wasn't asking for it to be shut down, but wished to make a point-out regarding the nature of the initial title and some posts of the member who authored it"

With your belligerent response, you're really just proving my point here.
Dear fellows,

Might I remind you that Numista is dedicated to coin collection, and that this free discussion forum to other related topics. But shall we keep it friendly ? We can all have our opinions, disagree on other points of view and express it, but without recursing to negative words ;-)

By the way, interesting topic !

Have a good day,

jp
Vieille Pile
Some municipal pushback against a cashless society in the unlikely locale of Chicago ...

One of the above posts shows how Sweden has a new law allowing retailers the option (soon the requirement) of refusing to take Swedish currency, now a Chicago ordinance is proposed that prohibits retailers from refusing to take cash:

https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20171016/downtown/alderman-edward-burke-ed-14th-ward-cashless-society-credit-debit-cards-ban

excerpt:

CITY HALL — Are we moving toward what's been called a "cashless society?" Not if a prominent alderman can help it.
Ald. Edward Burke (14th) submitted an ordinance at last week's City Council meeting to ban businesses from banning cash. Ald. Walter Burnett Jr. (27th) immediately signed on as a co-sponsor.
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
coins are what they most likely want to get rid of first
never kill a mockingbird: it's bad luck.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/09/big_brothers_cashless_scheme.html
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
resistance in Hong Kong to coinless/cashless society:
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2117467/hong-kong-slow-go-cashless-blame-success-octopus-card





http://www.timesnownews.com/business-economy/article/note-ban-anniversary-after-the-year-of-cashless-get-ready-for-the-year-of-paperless/115370
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Not that the PC police is trying to shut you down again, but are you gonna be fighting the globalist agenda on the free discussion forums much longer? It's getting a little bit tiresome
Quote: "CassTaylor"​Not that the PC police is trying to shut you down again, but are you gonna be fighting the globalist agenda on the free discussion forums much longer? It's getting a little bit tiresome

Cmon, don't make me spank you. You're just poking the bears to see if you can get funny reactions now.
By the way SteveV, you're looking at this (as are the articles you're posting) entirely the wrong way. Banks and governments are absolutely terrified at losing relevance due to blockchain technology (and the resulting currencies like bitcoin)

You can exchange value between two parties without paying a 3rd party, being audited, or losing value. The third party actors (banks) are no longer required. And meanwhile hundreds of new markets are opening up they have no input in.

Governments control currency, who has it, where its going, and love the ability to use capital controls. Blockchains technology is circumventing that and the central ability of banks. Banks and central government is screwed within 50 years unless it gets its act in gear.

They need [state issued] coins and notes far more than the population do.
Quote: "oggy"
Quote: "CassTaylor"​Not that the PC police is trying to shut you down again, but are you gonna be fighting the globalist agenda on the free discussion forums much longer? It's getting a little bit tiresome
​​
​Cmon, don't make me spank you. You're just poking the bears to see if you can get funny reactions now.
​In part at least, yes, but it IS genuinely eye-roll inducing to see this thread get bumped back to the top every so often, especially when the title brings this to mind:


But yeah, I'll call off my dogs.
What's wrong with pondering these things!?

Every day the world marches closer to a cashless future, where cash AND COINS are eliminated and replaced with digital currency.

The dangers posed by digital electronic currency are not limited to your pocketbook.

1. Loss of Privacy - there will be a digital trail of all your purchases, sales and transfers.
2. Chaos (localized or general/manmade or natural) - If the electric grid goes down for more than a few days [Please think about recent events in Puerto Rico caused by Hurricane Maria:

"As of Monday, 30.5 percent of Puerto Rico had electricity, according to the island's government. The restoration of electric power is central to Puerto Rico's recovery. The storm left virtually all of the island without power, and repair of the system has been slow." source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/38th-day-maria-hit-there-light-utuado-puerto-rico-n815651

Nearly six weeks after the storm hit!

3. Endangers Financial Freedom - a single keystroke could freeze access to and/or entirely 'erase' your accounts.

4. Enables Negative Interest Rates - the government could effectively and very efficiently tax you on every digital dollar/euro you own.

5. Chaos II - if an account is hacked by crooks. How many bank, governmental, private company, etc., databases have been hacked into and mined in the last decade, despite so-called impregnable security and best and costly efforts to prevent same?
-Just a taxpaying serf in Amerika
Discussion forum. You're not attempting to discuss or respond to anybody elses concerns on the topic but just continuing on your own merry way SteveV. Either discuss the topic and engage responses, or stop posting about it.

Plus the last post made me cringe more than CassTaylors dumb gif did.
Quote: "SteveV"​What's wrong with pondering these things!?

​Every day the world marches closer to a cashless future, where cash AND COINS are eliminated and replaced with digital currency.

​The dangers posed by digital electronic currency are not limited to your pocketbook.

​1. Loss of Privacy - there will be a digital trail of all your purchases, sales and transfers.
​2. Chaos (localized or general/manmade or natural) - If the electric grid goes down for more than a few days [Please think about recent events in Puerto Rico caused by Hurricane Maria:

​"As of Monday, 30.5 percent of Puerto Rico had electricity, according to the island's government. The restoration of electric power is central to Puerto Rico's recovery. The storm left virtually all of the island without power, and repair of the system has been slow." source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/38th-day-maria-hit-there-light-utuado-puerto-rico-n815651

​Nearly six weeks after the storm hit!

​3. Endangers Financial Freedom - a single keystroke could freeze access to and/or entirely 'erase' your accounts.

​4. Enables Negative Interest Rates - the government could effectively and very efficiently tax you on every digital dollar/euro you own.

​5. Chaos II - if an account is hacked by crooks. How many bank, governmental, private company, etc., databases have been hacked into and mined in the last decade, despite so-called impregnable security and best and costly efforts to prevent same?
​Loss of privacy and wealth manipulation into the hands of the few, which has been going on for quite some time, are important topics. The rich are always trying to make life easier for themselves at the expense of the many. It's been going on for hundreds of years, if not thousands. I think it's a good topic
never kill a mockingbird: it's bad luck.
Quote: "oggy"
​Haha that gif has served it's purpose then.

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