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Russian Empire on the world map [solved]

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Gimme Some Money!
Joined: 16-Aug-2017
Posts: 17
[Follow-up on the "British India on the world map" topic]

While we're at it:
The same issue with the Russian Empire. Shouldn't ones imperial Russian coins also be indicated when ones cursor is over Finland, the Baltic states, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, etc.

I haven't entered my USSR coins yet, but I imagine the same goes for these. (With he exception of Finland of course)

And what of the RSFSR coins? Should they only be visible when the cursor hangs over Russia?


RM
Houseofham
Joined: 26-Feb-2015
Posts: 628
Quote: "Gimme Some Money!"​And what of the RSFSR coins? Should they only be visible when the cursor hangs over Russia?






Any reason to show them anywhere else?

You could probably argue that they continued to circulate even after USSR was formed, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to list them anywhere else. The parallel I would make here is with countries that use another country's currency - we don't list it when you hover over them.

I must say, the sub-sections under USSR are rather arbitrary and do not give anywhere near complete picture of the financial reforms that took place throughout USSR's history.
  • 1st Soviet ruble (1917-1921), banknotes only
  • 2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.
  • 3rd Soviet ruble (Jan 1, 1923 - Mar 6, 1924), 1 new ruble = 100 old rubles, banknotes only
  • 4th Soviet ruble (Mar 7, 1924 - 1947), 1 new ruble = 50,000 old rubles. First coinage with the name USSR on it introduced. Smaller denominations in bronze/aluminium-bronze. 10 kop-1 rub continued to be struck in silver until 1931, then switched to copper-nickel. Coin designs (national coat of arms) got updated as the number of SSRs in the USSR changed (1 ribbon for each SSR).
  • 5th Soviet ruble (1947 - 1961) - old notes re-values 10-1, some new notes introduced, did not affect coins
  • 6th Soviet ruble (1961 - 1991), 1 new ruble = 10 old rubles - New coins for all denominations, using 1958 design (the year the reform had originally been planned for, but got postponed and most of the 1958 issue was melted, making the few coins that remain of it super-valuable).
  • 7th Soviet ruble (1991 - 1992) - Banknotes exchanged 10:1, old coins continued to circulate. A couple of coin denominations got new designs and a couple new denominations were introduced. These did continue to circulate as a temporary currency in some of the former republics after the break up.
HoH
Sulfur
Joined: 11-Jun-2016
Posts: 95
Quote: "Gimme Some Money!"I haven't entered my USSR coins yet, but I imagine the same goes for these. (With he exception of Finland of course)


​Looking at the map of my collection, the coins from the Soviet Union are included in fifteen different countries (fourteen excluding Russia). And, of course, Finland is not one of those countries. :)
ciscoins
Joined: 6-Apr-2013
Posts: 225
Quote: "Houseofham"2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.

​You are wrong. Until 1924 there was no silver in circulation, only banknotes. RSFSR coins were put into circulation together with USSR coins in 1924.
Numista referee for Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Dominican Republic
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://ciscoins.net/ - Coins of CIS and Baltic Countries, Coins of Central and South America
Houseofham
Joined: 26-Feb-2015
Posts: 628
Quote: "ciscoins"
Quote: "Houseofham"2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.

​​You are wrong. Until 1924 there was no silver in circulation, only banknotes. RSFSR coins were put into circulation together with USSR coins in 1924.
​Perhaps, "introduced" was not the right word and I should have said "struck" instead.
HoH
ciscoins
Joined: 6-Apr-2013
Posts: 225
Quote: "Houseofham"
Quote: "ciscoins"

Quote: "Houseofham"2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.
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​​​You are wrong. Until 1924 there was no silver in circulation, only banknotes. RSFSR coins were put into circulation together with USSR coins in 1924.
​​Perhaps, "introduced" was not the right word and I should have said "struck" instead.
​They were struck not for the 2nd rouble but for a planned future reform. Petrograd mint didn't have enough capacity to mint a large amount of coins during 1 or 2 years, so it started to mint coins long before the "main" reform happened. And when it actually happened, i.e. in 1924, RSFSR already wasn't a separate state but a republic within the USSR.
Numista referee for Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Dominican Republic
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://ciscoins.net/ - Coins of CIS and Baltic Countries, Coins of Central and South America
Houseofham
Joined: 26-Feb-2015
Posts: 628
Quote: "ciscoins"
Quote: "Houseofham"

Quote: "ciscoins"
​​

Quote: "Houseofham"2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.
​​​
​​​
​​​​You are wrong. Until 1924 there was no silver in circulation, only banknotes. RSFSR coins were put into circulation together with USSR coins in 1924.
​​​Perhaps, "introduced" was not the right word and I should have said "struck" instead.
​​They were struck not for the 2nd rouble but for a planned future reform. Petrograd mint didn't have enough capacity to mint a large amount of coins during 1 or 2 years, so it started to mint coins long before the "main" reform happened. And when it actually happened, i.e. in 1924, RSFSR already wasn't a separate state but a republic within the USSR.
Thank you for the information.

Anyhow, back to the original topic... Given the above information, does RSFSR then even deserve a separate mention on the map?
HoH
Mitridat1974
Joined: 28-Aug-2016
Posts: 64
Quote: "Houseofham"
Quote: "Gimme Some Money!"​And what of the RSFSR coins? Should they only be visible when the cursor hangs over Russia?
​​





​Any reason to show them anywhere else?

​You could probably argue that they continued to circulate even after USSR was formed, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to list them anywhere else. The parallel I would make here is with countries that use another country's currency - we don't list it when you hover over them.

​I must say, the sub-sections under USSR are rather arbitrary and do not give anywhere near complete picture of the financial reforms that took place throughout USSR's history.

  • 1st Soviet ruble (1917-1921), banknotes only

  • 2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.

  • 3rd Soviet ruble (Jan 1, 1923 - Mar 6, 1924), 1 new ruble = 100 old rubles, banknotes only

  • 4th Soviet ruble (Mar 7, 1924 - 1947), 1 new ruble = 50,000 old rubles. First coinage with the name USSR on it introduced. Smaller denominations in bronze/aluminium-bronze. 10 kop-1 rub continued to be struck in silver until 1931, then switched to copper-nickel. Coin designs (national coat of arms) got updated as the number of SSRs in the USSR changed (1 ribbon for each SSR).

  • 5th Soviet ruble (1947 - 1961) - old notes re-values 10-1, some new notes introduced, did not affect coins

  • 6th Soviet ruble (1961 - 1991), 1 new ruble = 10 old rubles - New coins for all denominations, using 1958 design (the year the reform had originally been planned for, but got postponed and most of the 1958 issue was melted, making the few coins that remain of it super-valuable).

  • 7th Soviet ruble (1991 - 1992) - Banknotes exchanged 10:1, old coins continued to circulate. A couple of coin denominations got new designs and a couple new denominations were introduced. These did continue to circulate as a temporary currency in some of the former republics after the break up.



Regarding the 1947 and 1991 reforms, the information is not correct.

Both of these were so-called "confiscation reforms" when the currency was NOT devaluated but old banknotes and money on bank accounts were exchanged only in limited quantity, and the rest was confiscated by the state (quite a "normal" practice for the Communist regime).

1947: coins up to 20 kopecks continued to circulate 1:1, banknotes were exchanged (limited quantity 1:1, the rest with certain limitations)

1991: ONLY old banknotes of 50 and 100 rubles were exchanged into new ones, 1:1 up to certain limit, the rest at a lower rate. The rest of banknotes and coins continued to circulate along with new ones that were introduced gradually well into 1990s. when the Soviet Union ceased to exist. What's more, even new Russian banknotes were bearing symbols of the Soviet Union; only in 1993 new banknotes with symbols of the Russian Federation were issued.

My (still modest) collection:
https://en.numista.com/echanges/voir_collection.php?id=75443
Houseofham
Joined: 26-Feb-2015
Posts: 628
Quote: "Mitridat1974"
Quote: "Houseofham"

Quote: "Gimme Some Money!"​And what of the RSFSR coins? Should they only be visible when the cursor hangs over Russia?
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​​Any reason to show them anywhere else?
​​
​​You could probably argue that they continued to circulate even after USSR was formed, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to list them anywhere else. The parallel I would make here is with countries that use another country's currency - we don't list it when you hover over them.
​​
​​I must say, the sub-sections under USSR are rather arbitrary and do not give anywhere near complete picture of the financial reforms that took place throughout USSR's history.
​​

  • 1st Soviet ruble (1917-1921), banknotes only
    ​​

  • 2nd Soviet ruble (Jan 1 - Dec 31, 1922), 1 new ruble = 10,000 old rubles. RSFSR silver coins introduced: 10, 15, 20, 50 kopeks, and 1 ruble. These coins stayed in circulation well past the formation of the USSR in Dec. of 1922, until silver was withdrawn from circulation in 1931.
    ​​

  • 3rd Soviet ruble (Jan 1, 1923 - Mar 6, 1924), 1 new ruble = 100 old rubles, banknotes only
    ​​

  • 4th Soviet ruble (Mar 7, 1924 - 1947), 1 new ruble = 50,000 old rubles. First coinage with the name USSR on it introduced. Smaller denominations in bronze/aluminium-bronze. 10 kop-1 rub continued to be struck in silver until 1931, then switched to copper-nickel. Coin designs (national coat of arms) got updated as the number of SSRs in the USSR changed (1 ribbon for each SSR).
    ​​

  • 5th Soviet ruble (1947 - 1961) - old notes re-values 10-1, some new notes introduced, did not affect coins
    ​​

  • 6th Soviet ruble (1961 - 1991), 1 new ruble = 10 old rubles - New coins for all denominations, using 1958 design (the year the reform had originally been planned for, but got postponed and most of the 1958 issue was melted, making the few coins that remain of it super-valuable).
    ​​

  • 7th Soviet ruble (1991 - 1992) - Banknotes exchanged 10:1, old coins continued to circulate. A couple of coin denominations got new designs and a couple new denominations were introduced. These did continue to circulate as a temporary currency in some of the former republics after the break up.
    ​​

​​

​Regarding the 1947 and 1991 reforms, the information is not correct.

​Both of these were so-called "confiscation reforms" when the currency was NOT devaluated but old banknotes and money on bank accounts were exchanged only in limited quantity, and the rest was confiscated by the state (quite a "normal" practice for the Communist regime).

​1947: coins up to 20 kopecks continued to circulate 1:1, banknotes were exchanged (limited quantity 1:1, the rest with certain limitations)

​1991: ONLY old banknotes of 50 and 100 rubles were exchanged into new ones, 1:1 up to certain limit, the rest at a lower rate. The rest of banknotes and coins continued to circulate along with new ones that were introduced gradually well into 1990s. when the Soviet Union ceased to exist. What's more, even new Russian banknotes were bearing symbols of the Soviet Union; only in 1993 new banknotes with symbols of the Russian Federation were issued.

​​
You're talking about official policy and I'm talking about the street rate which you could exchange any amount at.

I lived in Moscow in 1991 and witnessed that reform. Still have all those notes, from both before and after the reform. Prior to the withdrawal of the old 50 and 100 ruble notes, they had already introduced the new 1991 1, 3, 5, and 10 ruble notes without withdrawing the old ones. Yes, only the 50 and 100 ruble notes had to be exchanged, and officially you could only exchange up to 1,000 rubles, but that's not the whole story. As you can imagine, many people had money in excess of the limit, yet they found ways to exchange all of it, at a 10:1 rate. Obviously, someone still had a way to get an unlimited amount of old notes exchanged 1:1 and made 900% profit, but, yeah, the street rate was 10:1, any amount.

I'm sure it was no different in 1947.
HoH
Mitridat1974
Joined: 28-Aug-2016
Posts: 64
Street rates are something subjective and hard to prove: why 1:10, for example, and not 1:5?
If someone sold you new banknotes at that rate, it does not mean that everybody else had to pay the same (and just in case, I also lived in the Soviet Union back then, as well as many generations of my ancestors).
Most citizens (my family included) used their ways to exchange at 1:1 way more than the state expected them to exchange, sometimes even 100% of their assets. As a result, the "reform" failed but still irritated people enough as to make them lose the rest of credibility to the Communist Party. That failed "reform" contributed a lot, along with other factors, to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
My (still modest) collection:
https://en.numista.com/echanges/voir_collection.php?id=75443

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