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Elongated Pennies

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Indomini16
Joined: 12-Jun-2017
Posts: 250
Hello,
Do someone else have elongated pennie like this one ?
Is it really common?
I spot a Machine in Toledo, but I never pay attention before;


Is it an idea to add it to the Token section of the catalogue?
Thanks all in advance for your feed back !
Always look on the bright side of life !
Idolenz
Joined: 13-Jul-2013
Posts: 1688
I think they were all removed in "Token-Gate"
To me they are simply post mint damaged coins, but I don't like tokens in general :°
              
Indomini16
Joined: 12-Jun-2017
Posts: 250
Quote: "Idolenz"​I think they were all removed in "Token-Gate"
​To me they are simply post mint damaged coins, but I don't like tokens in general :°
​Sorry but wat is "Token-Gate" (I mean I understand what it could be, but when did it took place and what was the consequences?)
As you I don't like token but when you buy coins in bulk you often find som, so I put them in my swap list because I respect those who like to collect it, and if i can please someone that ok for me I just don' have the same hobby.
Always look on the bright side of life !
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 4375
Tokens created from coins made by (in many cases just one person) people were deleted. Carved things, things with colored stamps on coins, gold plated ones and elongated pennies. "Damaged coins" was other term for it as well.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Bohemia,Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic.
Indomini16
Joined: 12-Jun-2017
Posts: 250
Quote: "Jarcek"​Tokens created from coins made by (in many cases just one person) people were deleted. Carved things, things with colored stamps on coins, gold plated ones and elongated pennies. "Damaged coins" was other term for it as well.
​I fully agree with that, but those elongated penny are sold as Tourism token, no ?
Always look on the bright side of life !
Mark240590
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 5535
I don’t really think these have any place in the catalogue. I have some stretched pennies from Gibraltar and a stretched 5€ Cent.
BRITISH EMPIRE COLLECTION FOR SALE.INBOX ME IF YOU WANY ANY.

MAY SWAP FOR DURHAM AND NORTHUMBERLAND CONDER TOKENS OR OLD GIBRALTAR QUART COINS/ TOKENS
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "Mark240590"​I don’t really think these have any place in the catalogue. I have some stretched pennies from Gibraltar and a stretched 5€ Cent.
​I believe that they are tokens and have as much right to be in the catalog as shopping card tokens do ..
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Mark240590
Joined: 3-Jul-2012
Posts: 5535
Quote: "derf"
Quote: "Mark240590"​I don’t really think these have any place in the catalogue. I have some stretched pennies from Gibraltar and a stretched 5€ Cent.
​​I believe that they are tokens and have as much right to be in the catalog as shopping card tokens do ..
​Don’t they have a monetary value ?
BRITISH EMPIRE COLLECTION FOR SALE.INBOX ME IF YOU WANY ANY.

MAY SWAP FOR DURHAM AND NORTHUMBERLAND CONDER TOKENS OR OLD GIBRALTAR QUART COINS/ TOKENS
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "Mark240590"
Quote: "derf"
Quote: "Mark240590"​I don’t really think these have any place in the catalogue. I have some stretched pennies from Gibraltar and a stretched 5€ Cent.
​​​I believe that they are tokens and have as much right to be in the catalog as shopping card tokens do ..
​​Don’t they have a monetary value ?
​No .. Any resemblance of a penny or monetary indication is obliterated when the penny is pressed with the die ... So therefore it looses it's monetary value as a penny and becomes a tourist token ..
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 4375
No matter what use they might have, they are still not admitted.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Bohemia,Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic.
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "Jarcek"​No matter what use they might have, they are still not admitted.
​Then the whole token part of the Numista catalog should be deleted ...
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 4375
Whole token catalogue is consisting of tokens made from destroyed coins? I guess not.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Bohemia,Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic.
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "Jarcek"​Whole token catalogue is consisting of tokens made from destroyed coins? I guess not.
​What difference does it make as to what the token is made from .. ???

So go through the catalog and delete all tokens that are not made of metal and there will be room for the elongated penny tokens ...
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
An elongated penny tourist token is more of a token than this :::

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces120472.html
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 4375
It makes a difference between being and not being in the catalogue.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Bohemia,Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic.
omarove
Joined: 10-Nov-2012
Posts: 77
Quote: "derf"​An elongated penny tourist token is more of a token than this :::

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces120472.html
​Why would this be in the catalog? :D LOL
Omarove
jim275
Joined: 26-May-2013
Posts: 97
Here's a few that I've picked up at coin shows.

2011 ANA show, Pittsburgh, PA (American Numismatic Association)
2016 Winter FUN show, Tampa, FL (Florida United Numismatists)
2017 Winter FUN show, Fort Lauderdale, FL
and two from the 2017 World's Fair of Money in Denver, CO.
------------------------------
Would they classify as Exonumia if they had used blanks instead of US pennies?
If anyone is interested, the website for "The Elongated Collectors" is http://tecnews.org/
Numista referee for Switzerland, Swiss cantons
ken6528
Joined: 11-Sep-2009
Posts: 909
What about all the tokens that have no value. They are just souvenirs. Most of the new tokens added today have no value. Like this new token just added.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces123766.html
Numista referee for British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, Fiji, Cook Islands, Philippines, Vanuatu
Jesse11
Joined: 30-Dec-2015
Posts: 1005
The difference between elongated/pressed pennies and shopping cart tokens is that the pennies are the result of "post-mint damage" and were not intentionally minted that way. They are similar to if someone made jewelry out of coins. Perhaps collectable in their own right, but not really part of numismatics.
Idolenz
Joined: 13-Jul-2013
Posts: 1688
Quote: "derf"​​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces120472.html

Damn I always thought the token section contains questionable stuff but those take the cake!
We could add THOSE fine specimens too. :x
              
dltcoins
Joined: 26-Apr-2017
Posts: 306
Some are interesting and historical, such as this example from the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition (World's Fair) in St. Louis, made with a contemporary Indian cent.

Admittedly, it's no Barbie plastic "Play Token" or Reader's Digest "Lucky Sweepstakes Coin". Standards are standards, after all.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces120605.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces70619.html
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "Jesse11"​The difference between elongated/pressed pennies and shopping cart tokens is that the pennies are the result of "post-mint damage" and were not intentionally minted that way. They are similar to if someone made jewelry out of coins. Perhaps collectable in their own right, but not really part of numismatics.
​I SAY AGAIN ...  !!!! To what difference as to what the token is made of matter .. A token is a token ..  !!!!!!
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1460
Quote: "derf"
Quote: "Jesse11"​The difference between elongated/pressed pennies and shopping cart tokens is that the pennies are the result of "post-mint damage" and were not intentionally minted that way. They are similar to if someone made jewelry out of coins. Perhaps collectable in their own right, but not really part of numismatics.
​​I SAY AGAIN ...  !!!! To what difference as to what the token is made of matter .. A token is a token ..  !!!!!!
​As far as that goes, using your criteria of "post-mint damage", all of the counter-stamped coins should be removed from the catalog, because that counter-stamp is "post-mint damage" ...

Furthermore, please give an example from "any" numismatic reference that includes or excludes an item "solely" based on the method or process which was sued to create the item ..  !!!!!!!!

To conclude, one of the definitions of a token is: A souvenir or keepsake .. Of which, an enlogated penny tourist token qualifies ...
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
ken6528
Joined: 11-Sep-2009
Posts: 909
There is also plastic play money listed.
Numista referee for British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, Fiji, Cook Islands, Philippines, Vanuatu
Essor Prof
Joined: 13-Apr-2015
Posts: 1667
Quote: "derf"​​​As far as that goes, using your criteria of "post-mint damage", all of the counter-stamped coins should be removed from the catalog, because that counter-stamp is "post-mint damage" ...



​It depends. How can you call a counter-stamped coin counter-stamped at the Mint a "post-mint damage"?
There is a big difference between a coin like this (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces22267.html), which certainly deserves its place in our catalogue and a coin where I knocked my initials on with a hammer.
Pcoetzee5
Joined: 19-Jul-2012
Posts: 123
I know Jarcek, like many other admin, is very much against the elongated pennies/5 cents/coins/post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens, and that they were removed during the "clean-up".

I also know there are many collectors who are against collecting tokens, non-circulation coins, or UNC coins or for that matter proof coins.

That is the beauty of our hobby, we can decide what we would like to collect. Personally I like collecting these Post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens. I have some made in Germany, with foreign coins, and even of places that no longer exist.

Somehow I find it sad that we can not add these Post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens to the website. I love this website, as I can add all my coins here, with their variations, mint marks, comments, etc. And even more, I can add new coins, tokens, etc. and they are on line as soon as they have been moderated. I know, I do moderation work too.

Jarcek, perhaps it is time that we accept that we have different desires for our hobby and that we create a seperate section for Post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens, like tokens and ex-whatever. I will be prepared to take this section on as one of my Moderation parts. I am sure I will need your support from time to time, but this is one of the additions we can add to make the site even more comprehensive, and support those who would like to collect these Post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens.

Think about it.
Ex-South African now living in Germany
MonaSeaclaid
Joined: 21-Jan-2016
Posts: 916
I wouldn't begin to give poor Jarcek more work on this catalogue. The work that's been done has been fantastic and well thought out and certainly of benefit to not only the members of this community but the general public as well. If Jarcek says he's not adding these tokens then I say fair enough. He's not obligated to do this work. He's doing it voluntarily, and he's been doing an amazing job.

That said, I'm really surprised at the general attitude here. I don't think it's an unfair question to wonder why these are excluded, and to see that the answer from so many members is "because we said so" is discouraging, especially since up to this point I've seen nothing but an open-minded community sharing in a a collective but infinitely varied love of numismatics.

These tokens are a universally accepted field of exonumia. Just like medallions, wooden and plastic coinage, hobo nickels and...all other tokens. I don't personally collect them, but to see them completely excluded is disheartening.

I think if we are calling these post-mint damage then we also have to classify all counterstamps the same way. That would include chop marks, merchant stamps and lover's initials. And I think that's fair. It is effectively damage done to the coin post-mint, during the circulating lifespan of the coin. But what makes the elongated pennies irrelevant and the chop marks prized? Personal opinion, nothing more.

As for the comparison of someone making jewellery out of the coins, with the exception of those absolutely horrific rings I see all over the place I've never seen anyone here refer to a coin with a brooch backing attached to it as "not a coin" or "not relevant". Some people won't collect them but in my, admittedly short, time on the forum I've just never seen a complete disregard of the item, or calling it anything but a coin with damage on it.

I'd also have to argue against the point that they were not intentionally minted that way, they were done with great intention by the individual, whether tourist or enthusiast, who just happened to use a vending machine to make the mark. It's not altogether different from many accepted minting processes that are discussed here at length.

I'd also argue against them being "single issue only" or "made by just one person". A single elongated penny vending machine could have had hundreds, or even thousands, of satisfied customers a day. Unlike hobo nickels or post-mint gold plated coins, these are not unique, individual specimens. These are bordering on mass produced. jim275 raised the question best, "Would they classify as Exonumia if they had used blanks instead of US pennies?".

These pieces count as tokens not only by definition but by example.

The fact is that I may never make it to the section of the catalogue that would include elongated tourist pennies, but I don't think that's a good reason for it not to exist. And I certainly don't think that's a good reason to be so dismissive in the forum. This is a wide and varied hobby, and I would hope that this catalogue would exist to match. Is this an ever-growing, unabridged index or an exclusive listing for those who tick the right boxes?
Jesse11
Joined: 30-Dec-2015
Posts: 1005
Should the catalog contain things like hobo nickels? Every one is different. If I scratch some "Spock ears" onto George Washington, should I create a page for it in Numista? Where do we draw the line?

I think the "if they had used blanks" question is actually an excellent one, but not in the way it was intended. If someone created little artistic works on oval pieces of copper, would they merit a place in the catalog? I almost think it's only because of their original existence as coins that they were added here.
MonaSeaclaid
Joined: 21-Jan-2016
Posts: 916
I didn't argue in favour of hobo nickels being added. My point was a reason for them not to be.
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 4375
Reason is simple. We had to draw a line somewhere. We stopped adding tokens without pictures, cropping atarted and we drawed a line on some new additions.

It is easy to say what should be included and that we should recpect each collector wishes. But who is going to manage that. Some elongated pennies are arguably tourist tokens. Are we going to filter those which are and those which are not?

Tokens and exonumia will have their own lists in the future. Even there, lines will have to be drawn somehow. We can rethink those lines once we give them separate lists. If you wish to be really helpful, then look up recruitment thread, we are looking for new team members, or work on CCIP or work with referees by enhancing national catalogues. That can really help us and you as the final users of numista catalogue.
Catalogue administrator, Referee for Bohemia,Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic.
yvon
Joined: 9-Jun-2017
Posts: 92
In my opinion it is simple: these things are not usable for the purpose they were once made.
In other words they are not coins anymore, but pieces of copper or small artworks, if you like.
...you can run,  but you can't hide...
Pcoetzee5
Joined: 19-Jul-2012
Posts: 123
I appreciate the work that Jarcek and other put into the website, believe me, I have a very good understanding for that.

So perhaps we should give them the opportunity to finish their courent endevour, and support them where we can in achieving this. Once this is completed, perhaps then we can start the discussion again.

And as I said, I will be happy to add the post-production-damaged-tourist-tokens to my list of Moderations.
Ex-South African now living in Germany
lebryant
Joined: 4-Jan-2017
Posts: 52
Why would damaged coins be counted as tokens? In my eyes they're still coins but in a POOR grade.
aaronmgd
Joined: 9-Jan-2013
Posts: 464
Quote: "dltcoins"​Some are interesting and historical, such as this example from the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition (World's Fair) in St. Louis, made with a contemporary Indian cent.



​wow! Love this one. I would love to pick up one of these. So interesting.
aaron
Courtesy is the one coin you can never have too much of or be stingy with.

Coin collecting is the only hobby where you can spend all your money and still have some left.

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