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Mexico 1740 8 Reales information

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oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
If anybody has a catalogue, could they check up how much gold/platinum trace is supposed to be in these? Thanks.
SquareRootLolly
Joined: 7-Oct-2017
Posts: 113
Which country?
Thanks,
SRL

Preferably also give the KM catalog and the Numista page.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

'Mais les yeux sont aveugles. Il faut chercher avec le cœur.'

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
SquareRootLolly
Joined: 7-Oct-2017
Posts: 113
From the KM catalog.

Bolivia, Guatemala, Mexico and Peru all have the same ratio:

0.9170 Silver, 0.7980 oz. ASW

While Spain's one is different:

0.9030 Silver, 0.7859 oz. ASW

Hope that helped. I don't know how to do the mathematics.

Best,
SRL
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

'Mais les yeux sont aveugles. Il faut chercher avec le cœur.'

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
Sorry, I meant the mexican one.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces15066.html

And trace elements, not main composition!

Thanks for helping though :)
SquareRootLolly
Joined: 7-Oct-2017
Posts: 113
KM catalog doesn't mention anything about it.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

'Mais les yeux sont aveugles. Il faut chercher avec le cœur.'

- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
redsmithstudios
Joined: 20-Dec-2010
Posts: 2433
I’ve never heard of trace elements being a thing, tell us more?
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
Quote: "redsmithstudios"​I’ve never heard of trace elements being a thing, tell us more?

Usually it doesn't matter. 'Trace Elements' describe the elements of the alloy that although aren't listed, define the signature of genuine coins in a period. For example, medieval British gold coins will contain several specific trace elements relevant to the mint and the period.

However the 8 Reales is one of, if not the most counterfeited coin of all time. There's several issues around the 8 reales including state sponsored counterfeiting and restrikes.

- The restrikes sell for the same price as genuine coins because so far very few people even know they exist. None of the TPGs are set up to distinguish between the two types so if you submit now they will be
encapsulated as genuine. Most dealers don't even know it's a thing, so just sell them as originals and it doesn't really matter.

- Many restrikes weighed in at 83-85% silver, and the British adopted SG testing in around 1830 (as they didn't want inferior coins going around when they were producing the 90% ones) - Before this time you'll see some 8R restrikes with less content.

- ALL original genuine 8 reales with the PORTRAIT have 0.1-1% trace elements of gold and platinum in them, no exceptions.

Therefore, if you want a genuine PORTRAIT 8 Reales, you need to ensure that it has these trace elements. Why? Because they were exceptionally well counterfeited and extensively restruck. If you only care about value, and don't care if it's an original or class 2 restrike etc, it doesn't matter.

.... Back to my question. I don't know if the earlier 1740 MO's also had the same trace elements, so it's what I'm asking :)

Sorry for the long post!
redsmithstudios
Joined: 20-Dec-2010
Posts: 2433
That is very interesting! So if you got enough genuine coins together you could see what the trace elements are and rule out counterfeits! Awesome!
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
Yep, you collate information from the mints/periods, and use other examples to work out the alloy composition and trace elements.

Then when you have a coin which you suspect is genuine (remember, evaluating coins as genuine is a process of elimination) you can use XRF to 'scan' the coin and get a report back on the trace elements!
redsmithstudios
Joined: 20-Dec-2010
Posts: 2433
Quote: "oggy"​Yep, you collate information from the mints/periods, and use other examples to work out the alloy composition and trace elements.

​Then when you have a coin which you suspect is genuine (remember, evaluating coins as genuine is a process of elimination) you can use XRF to 'scan' the coin and get a report back on the trace elements!
​ Precisely!

Now we need about a billion dollars to start a coin bank so we can get each coins trace elements figured out and release a trace elements catalog.....
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
Quote: "redsmithstudios"
Quote: "oggy"​Yep, you collate information from the mints/periods, and use other examples to work out the alloy composition and trace elements.
​​
​​Then when you have a coin which you suspect is genuine (remember, evaluating coins as genuine is a process of elimination) you can use XRF to 'scan' the coin and get a report back on the trace elements!
​​ Precisely!

​Now we need about a billion dollars to start a coin bank so we can get each coins trace elements figured out and release a trace elements catalog.....

That's exactly what the British did in the 1830's with the [later] MO 8 Reales! They noticed low silver content at the Canton factories, so sent a load back to London for Assay. Then introduced specific gravity testing to weed out the lower silver restrikes back in China.

I know you said it as a joke, but its actually a really interesting idea you have there! Starting a website with coins trace elements, which are almost like signatures. Then people in doubt can just send it in for XRF to see. I think that the data already exists for most interesting coins though ; it's just very fragmented! (In various studies on specific coins etc)
oggy Numista team, Moderator
Joined: 8-Mar-2016
Posts: 1045
This is a really good book about the portrait ones: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1500497177
redsmithstudios
Joined: 20-Dec-2010
Posts: 2433
Joking? No, just lacking the funds. Perhaps I should go for donations....
if the info is there, we just need to assemble it into a catalog .
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!

Looking for pre 1783 coins
halfdisme
Joined: 6-Oct-2017
Posts: 77
Cayon also does not give any data to help.

If you are also researching older coins, you might find some detail in the articles/papers that deal with the Potosi Mint scandal of 1620-1652. Potosi coins were too heavily debased, to the point that international markets were discounting the Potosi coins. The Spanish king launched two investigations; the second led to the execution of at least one man (the mayor and former assayer); other reports say at least two were executed; and other current and former employees were transferred or dismissed (about 100 people were arrested or questioned).

Potosi changed the design of its cobs, to differentiate the newer coins; and countermarked/devalued or remelted the older ones.

At least one researcher has stated that the receipt of debased Potosi coins was one of the reasons that Massachusetts began issuing its own silver coinage in 1653.
zegeri
Joined: 29-Oct-2011
Posts: 673
There is a company in Spain called Nummetrica that analyze and certify coins using the composition of metal and traces.
apuking Numista team
Joined: 31-Oct-2012
Posts: 3990
I was once looking to buy an XRF scanner but those things are made for the industry, I think the cheapest I found was a used one for around 3.000€ . new ones I think were in the range of 10.000€ and up
Pre 1900 Quality Coins, Medals and Tokens only.

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