silver_smith
Joined: 30-Mar-2014
Posts: 167
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 02:13
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 02:13
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In 1945 the Mexican mint minted the Dos Pesos coin in gold as a circulating coin.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13933.html
They had issued for several years previous and for several years later as well. Or so I understand, please correct me if I am wrong.
From 1951 to 1972 they restruck it, but still dated it 1945, minting over 4.5 million coins.
My question is, why did they restrike it with the date 1945 and not with that of the present year?
What other examples are there of this type of restrike?
Mr. Midnight
Joined: 10-Mar-2017
Posts: 3442
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 02:28
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 02:28
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why Mexico did not change the dates , I leave to others, and will be interested to read any information. The 5, 10 and 20 peso gold were likewise re-struck in quantity as bullion in later years.
A few other well known examples, the
French 20 franc Rooster were re-struck with dates 1907-14 after the end of the first world war;
the
1935 Swiss 20 franc was re-struck after WWII in great numbers.
Jamais l'or n'a perdu la plus petite occasion de se montrer stupide. -Balzac
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 05:07
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 05:07
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Quote: "Mr. Midnight"why Mexico did not change the dates , I leave to others, and will be interested to read any information. The 5, 10 and 20 peso gold were likewise re-struck in quantity as bullion in later years.
Don't forget the Mexican 2 and 1/2 peso gold coin from the same series!
As for why restrikes of all those gold coins were made without any change to the date at all, my best guess is that it has something to do with laziness and not bothering with tweaking them on the coin dies.
Specifically for the
1907-14 dated restrikes of French gold rooster francs though, those were made primarily in two batches, one in 1921 and another around 1951-60, both for the purposes of shoring up government and bank gold stocks and reserves after two world wars. An ostensible explanation for the decision to restrike those coins with their original design might be the desire to prevent them from getting into circulation, since their face value of 20 francs had devalued greatly by the time those restrikes were made (vis à vis their value in 1907-14).
silver_smith
Joined: 30-Mar-2014
Posts: 167
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 06:15
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 06:15
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Since they were presumably produced from the same dies, is there no way then to discern an original 1945 from a re strike?
If that is the case, why would Numista have a section for original coins and another for restrikes?
Roublizer
Joined: 29-Jan-2013
Posts: 239
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 08:22
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 08:22
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Quote: "silver_smith"Since they were presumably produced from the same dies, is there no way then to discern an original 1945 from a re strike?
If that is the case, why would Numista have a section for original coins and another for restrikes?
I’ve wondered that myself.
If it were up to me, there would only be one listing.
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
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halfdisme
Joined: 6-Oct-2017
Posts: 849
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 14:35
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 14:35
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There are a number of 20th Century gold coins that were minted for years with frozen dates, including the Austria 100 corona 1915, the Mexico 50 pesos gold 1947, and Hungary 100 korona 1907 and 1908.
Reasons for these restrikes/frozen dates vary from country to country, but one reason for maintaining pre-1933 dates was for sale into the American market. From 1933 to 1974, it was illegal for American citizens to own gold coins that had a date after 1933.
CassTaylor
Joined: 30-May-2014
Posts: 8551
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 22:57
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 22:57
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Quote: "halfdisme"There are a number of 20th Century gold coins that were minted for years with frozen dates, including the Austria 100 corona 1915, the Mexico 50 pesos gold 1947, and Hungary 100 korona 1907 and 1908.
Reasons for these restrikes/frozen dates vary from country to country, but one reason for maintaining pre-1933 dates was for sale into the American market. From 1933 to 1974, it was illegal for American citizens to own gold coins that had a date prior to 1934.
The American reason is interesting, I'd never even considered that as a possible factor (I believe you meant it was illegal for US citizens to own gold coins with dates
after 1934?).
halfdisme
Joined: 6-Oct-2017
Posts: 849
Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 23:06
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Posted: 30-Dec-2018, 23:06
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Quote: "CassTaylor"The American reason is interesting, I'd never even considered that as a possible factor (I believe you meant it was illegal for US citizens to own gold coins with dates after 1934?).
You are right, I stated it backwards, so I edited it above.
1933 dated coins were acceptable, as was the 1933 US eagle (the eagle is legal to own; the double eagle is the problem child.)
I was collecting in the 1960s and 1970s, and there were lots of discussions about "legal date" world gold coins.
loruca
Joined: 11-Apr-2015
Posts: 1042
Posted: 31-Dec-2018, 14:42
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Posted: 31-Dec-2018, 14:42
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In many statea legislation is required to strike a new year's qorth of coims so in sime cases when there is a need for coins but no legislation coins can be struck for many years keeping one specific date. See the 1882 20 lire coins as an example.
I collect anything: If it's Italian or Italian states i collect it even more!
8 reales
Joined: 7-Feb-2019
Posts: 3
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 06:00
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 06:00
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The earlier dated coins were circulating coins. After WWII, the Mexican Mint started making coins for the bullion market, and purposely used the same dates to prevent numismatic rarity. The number made each year for the bullion market was small compared to the mintages during the circulating years. If they had used the year of manufacture, then the small mintage would possibly alter the coin from bullion to collectible. This was purposeful, and not due to laziness. When dies wore out, new dies were made using the bullion dates. Some of these new dies can be detected due to the different finish on the coins, like the 1945 50 Pesos (satin finish new dies). Today the Mexican Mint still makes the Hidalgo Series Pesos for the bullion market, while the Libertad series with annual date changes are made for the collectible market.
Roublizer
Joined: 29-Jan-2013
Posts: 239
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:45
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:45
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I’m pretty sure they stopped circulation after 1920/21. So then why would they continue putting dates on the coins into the 1940’s and 1950’s (depending on denomination) only to stop it to deter collectors. It doesn’t seem reasonable or likely to freeze the dates just to stop collectors (government wants their $). I’m not convinced.
(Post was edited before I realized I had been quoted)
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
Muenzenhamster is a healthy part of our community and should not be censored
halfdisme
Joined: 6-Oct-2017
Posts: 849
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:51
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:51
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Quote: "Roublizer"I’m pretty sure they stopped circulation after 1920/21. So then why would they continue putting dates on the coins into the 1940’s and 1950’s (depending on denomination). It doesn’t seem reasonable or likely to freeze the dates just to stop collectors (government wants their $).
Gold coins definitely circulated in the USA until the ban in 1933, and much later in other countries.
The escape/survival belts for airmen during World War II included British sovereigns and other gold coins, for them to use to buy supplies.
Roublizer
Joined: 29-Jan-2013
Posts: 239
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:58
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 19:58
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Quote: "halfdisme"
Quote: "Roublizer"I’m pretty sure they stopped circulation after 1920/21. So then why would they continue putting dates on the coins into the 1940’s and 1950’s (depending on denomination). It doesn’t seem reasonable or likely to freeze the dates just to stop collectors (government wants their $).
Gold coins definitely circulated in the USA until the ban in 1933, and much later in other countries.
The escape/survival belts for airmen during World War II included British sovereigns and other gold coins, for them to use to buy supplies.
I know thats the case for the US and Europe, but I don’t think thats the case for Mexico.
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
Muenzenhamster is a healthy part of our community and should not be censored
8 reales
Joined: 7-Feb-2019
Posts: 3
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 23:34
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 23:34
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Mexico started its bullion program in 1943 due to global demand for gold bullion resulting from WWII. European sources were disrupted. The first bullion issue 50 peso had no date...the (1943) double 37.5 grams issue. Public demand for a date resulted in dates resuming, the 1943,44 and 45..then the frozen date policy went into effect as mintage dropped post war to ensure its continued use as a bullion coin.
8 reales
Joined: 7-Feb-2019
Posts: 3
Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 23:43
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Posted: 7-Feb-2019, 23:43
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As far as economics, Mexico earned far more selling large numbers of bullion coins, as opposed to the minuscule collector market at the time....probably non existent collector market for high mintage contemporary date Mexican coins. Even today, gold libertad mintage are a few thousand per year compared to millions of Hidalgo series bullion coins since date freeze.
Roublizer
Joined: 29-Jan-2013
Posts: 239
Posted: 8-Feb-2019, 01:08
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Posted: 8-Feb-2019, 01:08
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That’s a better explanation. I still don’t see why correctly dated coins wouldn’t be as effective for bullion.
Buying gold and electrum coins 700bc-1950ad
Muenzenhamster is a healthy part of our community and should not be censored
NoIdea
Joined: 19-May-2020
Posts: 65
Posted: 26-Sep-2021, 18:40
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Posted: 26-Sep-2021, 18:40
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I just read through all the posts and didn’t find any explanation on how to distinguish the original dos pesos from the restrikes. The reason I ask is that there is an auction of a private collection on Catawiki with plenty of dos and dos pesos y medio. The bid for a dos pesos is at €150 !!! €150! Plus 8% commission and a proud amount for shipping. I would like to buy some more for my collection but at these prices it’s crazy. It is because it is not a restrike?? How can I see this from a picture? Tnks
NoIdea
Mr. Midnight
Joined: 10-Mar-2017
Posts: 3442
Posted: 26-Sep-2021, 21:48
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Edited: 26-Sep-2021, 22:18
Posted: 26-Sep-2021, 21:48
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Edited: 26-Sep-2021, 22:18
It might be that coins released to circulation in 1945 might show signs of circulation.
At least you can say, a circulated 1945 is likely to be an original. Also, you can say an uncirculated 1945 is highly unlikely to be an original.
However there is simply no way to be sure in any case.
edit to add: I have found that the Dos Pesos coins minted since 2000 were struck with new dies and a special matte finish, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and I found them for sale for US$ 185. IT seems most likely that is what you see at auction currently.
Older ones produced from 1951 to 1972 are identical to the original issue.
Jamais l'or n'a perdu la plus petite occasion de se montrer stupide. -Balzac
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