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Tyins 1993 - Kazakhstan

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klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Was adding some coins from Kazakhstan to my collection and i saw a few things, lets see


First part of the topic removed as it was an own search problem.


The other thing i saw its my coins weight more that what is listed in Numista (mine vs Numista) or some times Numista values are not the same as NGC.
  • 2 Tyin: 2.2gr vs 2.2gr* (should be 1.9gr as NGC lists it)
  • 5 Tyin: 2.2 vs 1.9gr (NGC ok with Numista)
  • 10 Tyin: 3.5gr vs3.3gr (NGC ok with Numista)
  • 20 Tyin: 4.6gr vs 4.52gr (NGC ok with Numista)
  • 50 Tyin: 7.2gr vs 7.43gr (should be 6.8 as NGC lists it)

So its posible that weights here in Numista are a bit wrong? May i change them?
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Newtony
Joined: 19-Feb-2017
Posts: 6
Hello, I don't know if this is helpful for you but I weighed my coins from Kazachstan:

1 Tyin 1993 - 2,20g / 17,25mm
10 Tyin 1993 - 3,30g / 19,66mm
20 Tyin 1993 - 4,55g / 21,95mm
50 Tyin 1993 - 7,12g / 25,03mm

These are the coins I have. Hope this helps ;-)
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Yeah, it helps Newtony. Seems that its posible to have variations in the weight of the coins (you have, i have...)

Also i dont know how i sarched yesterday but the different types of this coins are listed in Numista, yesterday i wasnt able to find them, only appeared to me all the brass ones and only the 50 Copper.

So the first part of my topic is trash. Maybe the weights, as said, vary, maybe production problems?
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Essor Prof
Joined: 13-Apr-2015
Posts: 2154
Don't forget there is always a margin when producing coins, at least for non-precious metals. So the deviation in weight between your coins and Newtony's coins is very normal. That doesn't necessarily mean the weights in Numista aren't wrong but to be sure your sample size has to be big enough. So you have to weigh a lot of coins and the average weight must give a clear difference with the Numista numbers. Only then you can change it with certainty.

Another example: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic48740.html. Look about halfway this topic (Posted: 28-Mar-2016, 02:05AM ) and you'll find a list of measurements of a Sweden 5 Kronor. The difference there between the lowest and highest weight is also almost 0.3 gr.
Oklahoman
Joined: 20-Dec-2015
Posts: 1794
NGC gets their information from the Krause Publications. NGC is not automatically correct.
Newtony
Joined: 19-Feb-2017
Posts: 6
Essor Prof is right. I have found articles about modern minting and tolerances of 3,5% are normal (depending which country or minting facility). In case of US pennies even 4% or 4,8% are considered within tolerance.

I routinely wheigh every coin that goes in my collection and depending on wear (because many of my coins come from circulation), a variance of 5% is quite normal.
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Ok, let me bring back the pics of my coins (XF in worst case (?) and not worn at all):



I have readed about that % of tolerance too somewhere (i would say it was here but i cant remember well). But if we do the maths taking the examples we have, from Newtony and the one form me, we have:

2 Tyin
  1. Numista: 2.2gr
  2. NGC: 1.9gr Tolerance 5% over 1.9gr: 0.095 = 2gr
  3. NewTony: 2.2gr
  4. klei92: 2.2gr

5 Tyin
  1. Numista: 1.9gr
  2. NGC: 1.9gr Tolerance 5% over 1.9gr: 0.095 = 2gr
  3. NewTony: -
  4. klei92: 2.2gr

10 Tyin
  1. Numista: 3.3gr
  2. NGC: 3.3gr Tolerance 5% over 3.3gr: 0.165 = 3.5gr
  3. NewTony: 3.3gr
  4. klei92: 3.5gr

20 Tyin
  1. Numista: 4.52gr
  2. NGC: 4.52gr Tolerance 5% over 4.52gr: 0.226 = 4.7gr
  3. NewTony: 4.55gr
  4. klei92: 4.6gr

50 Tyin
  1. Numista: 7.43gr Tolerance 5% under 7.43: 0.37gr: 7.06gr
  2. NGC: 6.8gr Tolerance 5% over 6.8gr: 0.34 = 7.14gr
  3. NewTony: 7.12gr
  4. klei92: 7.2gr

So, if i did well the math (pls i am not a ciencie guy, check them):

2 Tyin: NewTony + klei92 have 0.2gr more than the 5%
5. Tyin: klei92 have 0.2gr more than the 5%
10 Tyin: all inside 5% tolerance
20 Tyin: all inside 5% tolerance

50. Tyin: NGC: NewTony inside 5% tolerance; klei92 almost, should pass the cut; Numista is far away from 5% tolerance

50. Tyin Numista: all inside 5% tolerance, NGC is far away from 5% tolerance

Yeah, only 2 examples to do this is a bit "riddiculous" but i want to point that out.

Oklahoman, rookie here (me), afther read NGC a lot in too much topics for a lot of reasons, it became like some type of Bible z)

Edit: pressed Tab and my answer was posted without be fisnished, now it is
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Hi,

here are my 1993 coins with weight, diameter, thickness, edge and orientation, some times not everyting is there because I put the coins into my collection before I added those fields!



Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Quote: "Sjoelund"​Hi,

​here are my 1993 coins with weight, diameter, thickness, edge and orientation, some times not everyting is there because I put the coins into my collection before I added those fields!



​Ole
Very appreciated! some extra meassurements for the math. Will do them again improved and will try to make them more clear:

2 Tyin
  1. Numista: 2.2gr
  2. NGC: 1.9gr
  3. NewTony: 2.2gr
  4. klei92: -
  5. Sjoelund: 2.22gr

Tolerance of 5% over NGC 1.9gr: 0.095 = 2gr
----------------------------------------------------------

5 Tyin
  1. Numista: 1.9gr
  2. NGC: 1.9gr
  3. NewTony: -
  4. klei92: 2.2gr
  5. Sjoelund: 2.2gr

Tolerance of 5% over NGC/Numista 1.9gr: 0.095 = 2gr
---------------------------------------------------------

10 Tyin
  1. Numista: 3.3gr
  2. NGC: 3.3gr
  3. NewTony: 3.3gr
  4. klei92: 3.5gr
  5. Sjoelund: 3.35gr

Tolerance of 5% over NGC/Numista 3.3gr: 0.165 = 3.5gr
---------------------------------------------------------

20 Tyin
  1. Numista: 4.52gr
  2. NGC: 4.52gr
  3. NewTony: 4.55gr
  4. klei92: 4.6gr
  5. Sjoelund: 4.51gr

Tolerance of 5% over NGC/Numista 4.52gr: 0.226 = 4.7gr
---------------------------------------------------------

50 Tyin
  1. Numista: 7.43gr Tolerance 5% under 7.43: 0.37gr: 7.06gr
  2. NGC: 6.8gr Tolerance 5% over 6.8gr: 0.34 = 7.14gr
  3. NewTony: 7.12gr
  4. klei92: 7.2gr
  5. Sjoelund: 7.12gr

Tolerance of 5% over NGC 6.8gr: 0.34 = 7.14gr
Tolerance of 5% under Numista 7.43gr: 0.37 =7.06gr
---------------------------------------------------------


Results:

2 Tyin: NewTony + Sjoelund have 0.2gr more
5. Tyin: klei92 + Sjoelund have 0.2gr more
10 Tyin: all inside 5% tolerance
20 Tyin: all inside 5% tolerance

50 Tyin Numista: all inside 5% tolerance (under)
50 Tyin NGC: NewTony + Sjoelund inside tolerance (over); klei92 0.06gr over, should pass the cut?

Even with the good results in the 5% tolerance under Numista, i think its important to notice that there is such a big difference between weight references from Numista 7.43gr vs NGC 6.8gr in the 50 tyin coin.

Removed my 2 Tyin meassure because the math is under km#1 not km#1a (my 2 Tyin is that type so its not valid for this math).

Sjoelund, i noticed your diameter in 5 Tyin Km#2a: 17.80cm instead of 17.2cm. Could be this something?
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Hi,

I just noticed, that the measures for the km1, km2a, km3 and km8 are the measurements from BEFORE I started to measure with my own instruments, so you have to discard those, since they are a mixture of KM and Numista....

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
You killed me... Well Sjoelund, since you have them, if you have a little moment to weight them it would be perfect, just to see in what ends this
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Hi,

here they are again, but now all measured by me!



Have fun
Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
SRV5490
Joined: 25-Sep-2015
Posts: 603
It seems to me that the weight and diameter variations could also be due to the type of equipment and how it is used. Does everyone use calibrated digital scales and calipers.

I've noticed significant differences in weight and size when the batteries get low. I noticed also noticed variations in the diameter of a coin depending upon the amount of pressure that is applied to the calipers.

When I see these discussions I wonder about the past (long, long ago) and how many measurements were done with mechanical postage scales or plastic rulers.
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Hi,



Anyway forget about the 0.01 deltas caused by the adjustment to +-0, it's ridilculous and not very scientific!

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
Newtony
Joined: 19-Feb-2017
Posts: 6
I use cheap digital calipers to measure the diameter and it is correct to 0,02mm. For weight I use a cheap digital scale that is correct to 0,005g. To calibrate both I use a piece of metal that is measured and weighed at work with calibrated tools.
And now for real life: If you have a large number of the same coins and you start measuring and weighing them you quickly realize that everything beyond 0,1mm or 0,1g is pretty useless. I have more than enough coins that when you rotate them give different numbers (the coins are not perfectly round or have been dropped to the floor too often...).
The same goes for weight.
To summarize: I measure and weigh to 0,01mm and 0,01g, but my excel sheet rounds everything to 0,1mm and 0,1g, which for me is good enough...
The exception being the more modern coins that are sometimes catalogued to 0,05mm (2 Euro coin comes to mind)

For those of you who collect 2 Euro coins: I find the diameter to be pretty regular. Having measured a couple of hundred coins I find them to be between 25,70 and 25,80mm (catalog is 25,75mm) and the weight between 8,44 and 8,56g (catalog 8,50g)
Newtony
Joined: 19-Feb-2017
Posts: 6
Or to quote Sjoelund:

it's ridiculous and not very scientific... (to measure to 1/100th) :O:P
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Quote: "Newtony"​To summarize: I measure and weigh to 0,01mm and 0,01g, but my excel sheet rounds everything to 0,1mm and 0,1g, which for me is good enough...


​Change the parameters of Excel, you don't want to ruled by your soft ware, do you?



this is with two decimals, if you insert a 0 after the decimal point you'll get 3 etc!

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Or to quote Sjoelund:

it's ridiculous and not very scientific... (to measure to 1/100th)


The better your tools, the better it is, I would like to able to measure with an a presicion of 0.001, but I cannot afford that!

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Sjoelund, as far as i saw, there are changes in meassurements but your weights are the same, so the last math keeps ok

SRV5490, about the digital scales, i use one really similar to the Sjoelund (same display, same buttons, only different instructions...) and until now never had a disapointed weight meassure (little diferences because of worn problems, but always reasonable and understandable)

Avoiding entering the conversation Sjoelund - Newtony (just to end quickly, nothing wrong), will keep pointing out thoose 0.63gr of difference between Numista and NGC (the 5% would be 0.35% aprox)
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 286
Just a link to official data
https://www.nationalbank.kz/?docid=29&cat_id=84&switch=English

I think it is useful to align the Numista data with the official
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva, Japanese puppet etc.)
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Quote: "Grinya"​Just a link to official data
https://www.nationalbank.kz/?docid=29&cat_id=84&switch=English

​I think it is useful to align the Numista data with the official
​Afther all, with the one i was the more concern its the one with the data okey here... :P


Grinya, if you dont mind as you are the one who got the things in place, you should send the request to change the data for the official one.

In case you dont have time, i can do it as well.
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Quote: "Grinya"​Just a link to official data
https://www.nationalbank.kz/?docid=29&cat_id=84&switch=English

​I think it is useful to align the Numista data with the official
​Sorry to disagree,

one thing is the letter of charge (official data) and another is the those small metal things (coins) coming out in reality.

PLEASE DO NOT MIX UP THE TWO. The reality is what we measure, which is mostly never corresponding to the the theory!

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 79
Dont want to contradic one of the expert of this site in variations, types, etc, but Sjoelund, we have each one a different meassure (we are only 3 giving meassures but, you see...) and since its a contemprary production and we have the official data, it seems to me that its what should appear, having in mind that this variations in weight exists.

Maybe its a common problem in their producction? Something as Newtony pointed about the weight of euros but in larger scale?
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Sjoelund
Joined: 28-Mar-2012
Posts: 2543
Oh Boy, oh Boy,

if you give me your email address via a PM, I'll send you all the measurements I have of my coins (around 27.524 out of more tanh 40.000 by now and all them have been reported to KM and taken into account from time to time) in my collection and then you can compare them to the "official" and you'll be in for a mighty surprise!

Ole
Globetrotter
Coin variants in English:
https://sites.google.com/site/coinvarietiescollection/home
In French on Cobra's site (not the same)
http://monnaiesetvarietes.esy.es/

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