Issuer Difficulty Index

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This message aims at: suggesting an idea to improve Numista

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Hi Numista members.

I expanded the work done by the members of Numista's 300 country club.
I created a list of difficulty of issuers using data of 43 collectors who have open collections on Numista site.
Using an Excel worksheet and functions, I collected the issuers names of each of 43 collectors.
Then I created the table bellown, and counted the number of collectors who owns at least one coin from each issuer. And I ranked the issuers by the number of members who owns coins from these issuers.

An exemple of difficult level was created, using a math relation in which issuers with zero owners have issuer rarity index equals to 100 and issuers with 43 owners have issuer rarity index equals to 1.
Can you create a dynamic table like this with the data of all collectors?
Showing the issuers difficult level.
It would be a very nice information for collectors who focus in having the higgest number of issuers in their collections.
And it would give a very nice information, how much difficult is to find a coin from a given issuer.
And would enrich much more the site information.


Some results that I found in my research with 43 big collectors:
1) only 817 issuers has coins with at least one owner.
2) 1233 issuers are not in any of the 43 collections. These are the most difficult and are classified as a challenging list or black list.
3) 140 issuers (the brown list) are extremelly hard and only 1 collector in the group of 43 owns coins from it.
4) 125 issuers are extremelly easy and are in collections of at least 40 of 43 collectors.



I have the worksheet with results. But I couldnt attached it here.

Best regards.

Leandro Turi
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Very interesting research! It looks like reaching 300 different issuers is quite an easy task now.

Back when there was a different country list it was very hard to get to 300 countries.
ROMAE AETERNAE
You can use Google sheets and post a link here
Medieval sets for swap:https://en.numista.com/forum/topic140941.html

My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
I will post the worksheet. Here we have an exemple of results from some issuers (3 from each color):

Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
While it should be easy for Xavier to generate such list, it is not so easy, because some members just mark every coin or mark some wishes...
Catalogue administrator
Still, amazing job you have done!
Catalogue administrator
The link to the Google worksheet:

Issuers difficult

:)
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Amazing job Turi!

That is very useful to know whose issuers to focus!
I have an issuer with 0 owners in my swap list. It seems that the table doesn't take into account coins for swap.
Medieval sets for swap:https://en.numista.com/forum/topic140941.html

My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
Hi Grinya.

I didnt use your profile in the search, I only use 43 profiles to do the search, and I only use the countries in colections not for swap.
If Xavier expand the job. I think that it would be more precise with all the Numista members.

Best regards
Leandro
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Grinya"​I have an issuer with 0 owners in my swap list. It seems that the table doesn't take into account coins for swap.
​Goths from Taman. Very difficult! Congrats Grinya.
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
Very nice work! It was definitely enjoyable to look through. :D

It looks like my rarest is a tie between Dorpat and Zengid. :°
Interesting, thank you!
Yet more questions arise, for example, what would happen to this table if it was filtered chronologically (e.g. leaving only 20th century only), or if 3rd level issuers were lumped together (Graubünden ⇨ Swiss Cantons)
ūūūūū
Quote: "phfoticus"​Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
​Thank you very much!

​Yes, I didnt take account countries in the search, but 250 countries is very difficult number. A Club like this will have a little number of members.
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "numinis"​Interesting, thank you!
​Yet more questions arise, for example, what would happen to this table if it was filtered chronologically (e.g. leaving only 20th century only), or if 3rd level issuers were lumped together (Graubünden ⇨ Swiss Cantons)
​Thanks!

Very interesting questions. It certainly urges me to study much more and broaden the search.
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Sulfur"​Very nice work! It was definitely enjoyable to look through. :D

​It looks like my rarest is a tie between Dorpat and Zengid. :°
​Thanks!

Dorpat and Zengid are very difficult issuers! It is in the Black list because your profile was not take into account in the search.
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Leandro Maciel Turi"
Quote: "phfoticus"​Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
​​Thank you very much!

​​Yes, I didnt take account countries in the search, but 250 countries is very difficult number. A Club like this will have a little number of members.
​250 countries now would likely be slightly harder than 300 countries in the old system; I'd guess maybe around 330-350. (In other words, it's achievable, but indeed somewhat difficult.)
As a calibration point: I have, as far as I can tell, almost exactly 300 old countries now (was at 293 when the reorganization hit, acquired a few more since), and 232 new countries.

As far as the list goes, I seem to have about half a dozen black-colored issuers - though honestly I have no idea how issuers as common as Grand Principality of Moscow (!!) and Teutonic Order (!!!) ended up in that category.
(...Granted, for the Grand Principality of Moscow, I do have a bit of a head-start due to living in its titular city. Teutonic Order was unexpected though.)

I maintain that my rarest issuer is probably Shirvanshah dynasty; for several years, the issuer only had one type listed, with me as the only owner. (Ironically enough, I did not create that page.)
I see that another type had since been added - also with only one owner (not me this time).
Quote: "January First-of-May"
Quote: "Leandro Maciel Turi"

Quote: "phfoticus"​Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
​​​Thank you very much!
​​
​​​Yes, I didnt take account countries in the search, but 250 countries is very difficult number. A Club like this will have a little number of members.
​​250 countries now would likely be slightly harder than 300 countries in the old system; I'd guess maybe around 330-350. (In other words, it's achievable, but indeed somewhat difficult.)
​As a calibration point: I have, as far as I can tell, almost exactly 300 old countries now (was at 293 when the reorganization hit, acquired a few more since), and 232 new countries.

​As far as the list goes, I seem to have about half a dozen black-colored issuers - though honestly I have no idea how issuers as common as Grand Principality of Moscow (!!) and Teutonic Order (!!!) ended up in that category.
​(...Granted, for the Grand Principality of Moscow, I do have a bit of a head-start due to living in its titular city. Teutonic Order was unexpected though.)

​I maintain that my rarest issuer is probably Shirvanshah dynasty; for several years, the issuer only had one type listed, with me as the only owner. (Ironically enough, I did not create that page.)
​I see that another type had since been added - also with only one owner (not me this time).

This must have happened because the research profiles are generally from members of western Europe and the Americas where these Russian principality coins are most difficult.

To draw more general conclusions Numista would have to set up an indicator in the same way with all users of the site.
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "phfoticus"​Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
​ I made the same search considering only first level countries.

This is the result:



The orange hard level begins with 235 countries. The red very hard level begins with 270 countries and 21 countries (the black list) are not in any of the 43 collections considered in the search.

I think that a 230-240 country club is a very good choice.

:)
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Attached the results:

Countries results
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Leandro Maciel Turi"
Quote: "phfoticus"​Great job! -- maybe we can start up something like a 250-country club?
​​ I made the same search considering only first level countries.

​This is the result:



​The orange hard level begins with 235 countries. The red very hard level begins with 270 countries and 21 countries (the black list) are not in any of the 43 collections considered in the search.

​I think that a 230-240 country club is a very good choice.

:)

Great work -- even better than an issuer's list.
The problem with a 230-240 country club is that there's no obvious boundary in that range; it's either 225 or 250. I guess maaaybe 240, though it's a stretch.

As far as my collection is concerned, I have four different coins from Rus Principalities, which apparently none of the 43 queried collectors managed to get (dunno why - possibly due to Russian coin export restrictions); my next rarest country is Nabataean Kingdom (9 owners), followed by Mongol States (10) and Judea (11), with Moldavia and Wallachia (12) and British Indian Ocean Territory (20) rounding up the orange level.

Perhaps a more useful question is the most common country I don't have; that comes out to 1) Marshall Islands (33 owners), 2) Qatar and Dubai (28), 3) Low countries feudal (also 28), 4) Danish West India (27).
[On second look, Exonumia is even more common (37 owners), but was not listed properly in the country rarity listing.]
Other countries in the yellow range that I don't have are Hutt River, Korea, Palau, Order of Malta, and British Antarctic Territory.
Although a lot of effort was put in this endeavour, still it seems that without a full-fledged statistics tool (with filtering and granularity control and unbiased samples) there's no way to answer questions which I find significant. What is needed here is not a single difficulty index but the ability to filter and order countries, issuers, periods etc. by personal criteria.
Some random reflections:
  • Why mingle ancient coins with modern ones? Collecting ancients is a very different hobby. The collectibles have different provenance than contemporary money and their market likely obeys different laws.
  • There are countries which issue only NCLTs for profit, but others use coins out of necessity as money. People who collect NCLTs could have different motives to do that than the collectors of ordinary coins.
  • There are many ways to group the coins existing in the database: not just by 1st, 2nd or 3rd level issuers, but also by historical periods and currencies (one period can have several currencies). Almost everyone has a coins or two from France, but it is doubtful that Livre tournois (781-1795) is that popular as well.
ūūūūū
Quote: "January First-of-May"As far as my collection is concerned, I have four different coins from Rus Principalities, which apparently none of the 43 queried collectors managed to get (dunno why - possibly due to Russian coin export restrictions); my next rarest country is Nabataean Kingdom (9 owners), followed by Mongol States (10) and Judea (11), with Moldavia and Wallachia (12) and British Indian Ocean Territory (20) rounding up the orange level.

​Perhaps a more useful question is the most common country I don't have; that comes out to 1) Marshall Islands (33 owners), 2) Qatar and Dubai (28), 3) Low countries feudal (also 28), 4) Danish West India (27).
​[On second look, Exonumia is even more common (37 owners), but was not listed properly in the country rarity listing.]
​Other countries in the yellow range that I don't have are Hutt River, Korea, Palau, Order of Malta, and British Antarctic Territory.
​Add India (ancient) [20 owners, just barely orange] to the first part, and remove British Antarctic Territory [23 owners, just barely yellow] from the second part.

I want to say that I'm hoping for 250 countries, but, well, it's slim pickings up there. Several of my missing countries are "suck up and pay the $10" cases (sometimes with $20 instead of $10), and most of the rest just don't show up that often.
Quote: "January First-of-May"​The problem with a 230-240 country club is that there's no obvious boundary in that range; it's either 225 or 250. I guess maaaybe 240, though it's a stretch.

​As far as my collection is concerned, I have four different coins from Rus Principalities, which apparently none of the 43 queried collectors managed to get (dunno why - possibly due to Russian coin export restrictions);
......

​The main problem with Rus Principalities is that there don't seem to be any coins on US eBay from (for example) Grand Principality of Moscow that are also in the Numista catalog. I don't have any Russian reference catalogs to verify the eBay dealer attribution, so they could be added to the catalog.
I recently swapped some of Moscow Principality coins, therefore it shouldn't be such rare issuer:)

@phfoticus, some of the coins are catalogued here (in Russian) http://silver-copeck.ru/
Coins attributed to pre-1538 (upper left side) belong to Rus Principalities
Medieval sets for swap:https://en.numista.com/forum/topic140941.html

My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
I don't know if I was one of the 43 collectors used to establish this data. In the old 300 club I had over 400 countries. My coins page says I now have 270. I guess I'm not sure what qualifies as a country now.
Quote: "Leandro Maciel Turi"​I expanded the work done by the members of Numista's 300 country club.

​Fun fact: There aren't 300 countries in the Numista country list. So this is a mission impossible to get 300 countries. At least for now. ;)
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Quote: "eug"​I don't know if I was one of the 43 collectors used to establish this data. In the old 300 club I had over 400 countries. My coins page says I now have 270. I guess I'm not sure what qualifies as a country now.
​Hi eug. I used your collection in the research. You have one of the most beautifull collections of Numista.
Congrats. :wiz:
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "eug"​I don't know if I was one of the 43 collectors used to establish this data. In the old 300 club I had over 400 countries. My coins page says I now have 270. I guess I'm not sure what qualifies as a country now.

I have the same question. If I get this correctly what is call "Issuers" now used to be considered "Countries". And what is called a "Country" now has some more stringent criteria than just having it's own currency and different government. What that criteria is I would like to know. Apparently Germany States like Prussia are considered the same as a current day German Euro as far as country count goes. Is that correct?
I am not mad or upset, just want to understand what my Countries and Issuers numbers mean. Thanks.
Quote: "ElectronJohn"​​And what is called a "Country" now has some more stringent criteria then just having it's own currency and different government.
than*
its*
​Sorry mate, but I just couldn't ignore it. 0:)
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
Thanks, I fixed it. Was typing fast and more focused on getting my question out than editing it for publication. But now that we have that taken care of can you address the question of how a "Country" is defined for the purpose of this website?
Quote: "ElectronJohn"​Thanks, I fixed it. Was typing fast and more focused on getting my question out than editing it for publication. But now that we have that taken care of can you address the question of how a "Country" is defined for the purpose of this website?
;)
​I honestly have no idea. It's a great mystery to all of us. My count of issuers were previously my count of countries. What, how, when, and why it changed, I'm afraid I cannot answer.
Coin referee for: AZE, FRO, GRL, US-HI, KOR, KGZ, MLI, MHL, MMR, PRK, UZB, SML, TAT, TWN, TJK
Banknote referee for: AGO, AZE, BLR, ECS, GEO, HTI, KAZ, KGZ, KOR, MNG, MRT, PMR, PRK, ROK, SWE, TJK, TKM, TUR, UZB, WSM, ZWE
First of all , thank you very much for this research.

Following this thread I would like to raise (maybe again) theme about the minimal criteria for the territory to be a "Numista Country".

I looked through both Countries and Issuers lists (currently, "country list" includes 299 items as far as I see) and had at least couple of questions:
Just for example:
Why Czechoslovakia is a Country but huge and great Austro-Hungarian Empire NOT, but again small Livonia is country.

Why almost unknown tiny Windward Islands, Sint Maarten, Saint Barthelemy deserved to be a "country"

Absolutely surprise for me, that even the USSR is not a Numista country!
Best regards,
afpcoins
Hello.

I updated the research. Now we have 103 collections of all the continents in the research.

The link to the details:
Results worksheet

This is the results for issuers:


And this is the results for countries:


Best regards
Leandro
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Jarcek"​While it should be easy for Xavier to generate such list, it is not so easy, because some members just mark every coin or mark some wishes...
​Hello.

Didnt you like the idea of having a difficult level index for issuers?

I think that it is easy to do it.

I bet that half of the issuers list doesnt have any collectors which own one coin from.

:)
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection
Quote: "Turi"​Hello.

​I updated the research. Now we have 103 collections of all the continents in the research.

​The link to the details:
Results worksheet

​This is the results for issuers:


​And this is the results for countries:


​Best regards
​Leandro
​​Very good work, appreciating your efforts ​​​​​:)

Regards,
Pramod​​
“Arise, awake, stop not until your goal is achieved.”
Quote: "pramodambady"
Quote: "Turi"​Hello.
​​
​​I updated the research. Now we have 103 collections of all the continents in the research.
​​
​​The link to the details:
​​Results worksheet
​​
​​This is the results for issuers:
​​
​​
​​And this is the results for countries:
​​
​​
​​Best regards
​​Leandro
​​​Very good work, appreciating your efforts ​​​​​:)

​Regards,
​Pramod​​
​ Thank you Pramod!

This is an updated research made in june:

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic98275.html

With data of all the Numista's oppend collections, instead of only 103 collections. :)

regards
Leandro
Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection

Hello.

 

This is the link to the updated research.

 

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic127295.html

Turi

https://www.instagram.com/my_world_coins_collection

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