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Suggestion for change to sales policy

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neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
With the current dramas regarding sales on the site I propose we have another look at the sales policy.

You need to ask why the rules were set up in the first place. As I understand it, it was to prevent new accounts being set up to sell coins and rip off Numista members. The question is, who would you trust more? A 3 month old account that has 12 swap ratings (who qualifies to sell under the current rules) or a member who has been on the site for several years with hundreds of top rated swaps who has only 10 swaps in the past year (who doesn't qualify under the current rules)?

It's easy enough for numerous new accounts to be set up to provide fake feedback to get to the 12 required swaps, it's not easy to build up an account over numerous years and accumulate many positive swap feedback

So I would like other members to give their feedback on what changes they would like to see to the rules. Here are the changes I would like to see

1. Politeness is mandatory! Unchanged

2. A member with a warning on his swap page or his profile is not allowed to sell through Numista as long as the warning is present. Unchanged

3. Selling post minimum requirements:
- Good quality pictures clearly showing obverse and reverse of the coin for sale (not generic pictures).
- Weight, metal and diameter of the coin for sale.
- A fixed price.
  • Good clear pictures
  • Fixed price
  • Description of the coin/coins for sale. (Some people sell larger lots of coins and shouldn't need to provide weight, metal and diameter of all the coins, just a comprehensible description of what is for sale)

4. A new sale involves the creation of a new thread. I think it is tidier to list everything for sale on one thread rather than cluttering the forum with new threads for every sale.

5. Bumping is tolerated but with parsimony. Unchanged

6. A member asking for free coins or banknotes on Numista will not be allowed to sell through Numista for a subsequent period of 6 (six) months. Unchanged

7. Selling member minimum requirements:
- 3 (three) months membership.
- Minimum of 12 (twelve) completed swaps rated 10/10 over past 12 (twelve) consecutive months.
  • 1 Year membership
  • Minimum of 20 completed swaps rated 10/10 (Increase the time someone has to have been a member of the site, increase the minimum number of swaps, but remove the requirement for them to be within the last 12 months)

8. Exceptional nature of the transaction:
- No recurrent sales.
- Maximum of 1 (one) sale post per week.

This is ok as long as the rule about all sales being included in one post is in effect

9. Mentions that may suggest a sale could occur instead of a swap are not allowed if it is deemed to circumvent above rules.

Unchanged
What? Me Worry
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1266
All your suggestions Neil are welcome and a real improvement of actual policy but I think the most important aspect of all rules, not just sale rules are common sense and insight. Like someone said today in another thread moderators need to understand the context and what every rule is trying to prevent. Some will try to prevent newcomers to jump and sale coins, some will try to prevent misunderstandings between seller and buyer regarding the quality of the coin or other things, some will try to prevent malfunctions in this forum section and so on. For example if someone want to sell a bulk of 100 Pennies it would be absurd to ask him to get a quality picture of every coin but a general picture of whole lot with an appropriate description it could work. You can't really catch all these things in a strict sales policy but I agree that general guidelines could be improved. And without trying to hijack this thread I don't think that this will work with some Numista moderators.
cro321
Joined: 25-Mar-2016
Posts: 539
A very good suggestion, I support it. :)
Salaction
Joined: 2-Apr-2017
Posts: 400
Supported
wolfgang-s
Joined: 14-Jun-2014
Posts: 118
one year membership
15 swaps, no time limit
Stupendousman35
Joined: 31-Jul-2016
Posts: 90
Great idea!
pnightingale
Joined: 27-Jul-2011
Posts: 5245
Agreed in general though I'd leave the description requirements alone but consider them to be an ideal we should strive for rather than a rigid mandate. I reckon most experienced collectors are going to include such things as obv/rev images for a single coin but that rule becomes somewhat redundant for bigger lots.

I reckon that the most important factor is sure footed, firm moderation applied judiciously. Simply applying the rules without nuance clearly won't work if you're going to ban some poor schlub selling 10 kilos of bulk coins because he hasn't included 2 pictures and full specs for each single one. If we're not going to use discretion we might as well let Mr Robot do the moderating.
Non illegitimis carborundum est.  Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!  
Myeackle
Joined: 25-Jun-2014
Posts: 1252
Looks good to me.

Matt
derf
Joined: 11-Mar-2012
Posts: 1738
Supported .. Would make an improvement ..
? Format  Format  Format ?   ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
harryg
Joined: 26-Mar-2018
Posts: 528
I agree totally. I would also add a separate SALES category in the forum index. The "swaps and trade" category has morphed into a predominate sales board at this point. I joined this site for the purposes of swapping with an occasional purchase as the exception from established and reputable members. There are a multitude of sources I can purchase from. Lets keep this site what it was originally intended to be. A swap and trade site.
ArnoV
Joined: 23-Nov-2011
Posts: 835
Neil, where would we be without your wisdom/common sense!

I support the new rules.

After years of swapping, my swap list dried up for interesting things, except for two French key dates, which I consider selling. I have 99 completed swaps with 10/10 rating. Under the current rules, I don't qualify for selling because I hardly had any swaps recently.
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 514
I think it is better to limit one thread per seller per week (or even per month) + one lot per post in this thread.

I'm not sure about removing limitation about swaps in the last 12 months. May it be a situation when some old but silent account are hacked?
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
ashlobo Numista team
Joined: 30-Sep-2013
Posts: 950
Mostly agree. However, for pictures, I believe the current Numista requirement is better ie
“Good quality pictures clearly showing obverse and reverse of the coin for sale (not generic pictures).
Outings administrator
glykan
Joined: 11-Sep-2013
Posts: 534
Completely agree but would remove the requirement for the qualifying swaps being done within last 12 month - we have quite a number of members who do just several swaps a year or go dormant for several month (like i do).
Separating swaps and sales in our Forum would be a very good idea, too.
蝸牛そろそろ登れ富士の山
Katatsumuri sorosoro nobore fujinoyama
neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
Quote: "Grinya"​I think it is better to limit one thread per seller per week (or even per month) + one lot per post in this thread.

​I'm not sure about removing limitation about swaps in the last 12 months. May it be a situation when some old but silent account are hacked?
​the problem is that not everyone manages 12 swaps a year. If you have been a member over a year, are active on the forums but only swap 5-10 times a year then under the current rules you’re not allowed to make a sale.
What? Me Worry
neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
Quote: "pnightingale"​Agreed in general though I'd leave the description requirements alone but consider them to be an ideal we should strive for rather than a rigid mandate.

​The whole issue started when a certain moderator enforced rules to the letter of the law and when accused on being heavy handed, claimed the rules apply to everyone. So if we want to avoid these dramas again I think we need to either change the rule to make it more general, or change the moderator.
What? Me Worry
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1266
Quote: "neilithicman"
Quote: "pnightingale"​Agreed in general though I'd leave the description requirements alone but consider them to be an ideal we should strive for rather than a rigid mandate.

​​The whole issue started when a certain moderator enforced rules to the letter of the law and when accused on being heavy handed, claimed the rules apply to everyone. So if we want to avoid these dramas again I think we need to either change the rule to make it more general, or change the moderator.
​Maybe both are required. 0:)
jacemcdonald
Joined: 17-Sep-2019
Posts: 71
Looks good Neil, but maybe add a rule stating that French mods should stick to the French forum & English mods should stick to the English forum. That will also remove a lot of drama from the forums.
ashlobo Numista team
Joined: 30-Sep-2013
Posts: 950
Quote: "jacemcdonald"​Looks good Neil, but maybe add a rule stating that French mods should stick to the French forum & English mods should stick to the English forum. That will also remove a lot of drama from the forums.
​To me that is extremely inefficient, especially if the moderator has fluency in both languages and understands the issues at hand. Flame wars erupt quickly and locking a thread/deleting posts/taking away posting rights et ASAP is extremely useful. Moreover, with moderators spread globally (I assume), it makes for better management given time zones. It sounds silly to watch from the sidelines and not do anything as a moderator just because “I handle X language side”. I’d expect that if a flame war happens on the French side and our English language mods speak French reasonably well, they can/should act.
Outings administrator
jacemcdonald
Joined: 17-Sep-2019
Posts: 71
Quote: "ashlobo"
Quote: "jacemcdonald"​Looks good Neil, but maybe add a rule stating that French mods should stick to the French forum & English mods should stick to the English forum. That will also remove a lot of drama from the forums.
​​To me that is extremely inefficient, especially if the moderator has fluency in both languages and understands the issues at hand. Flame wars erupt quickly and locking a thread/deleting posts/taking away posting rights et ASAP is extremely useful. Moreover, with moderators spread globally (I assume), it makes for better management given time zones. It sounds silly to watch from the sidelines and not do anything as a moderator just because “I handle X language side”. I’d expect that if a flame war happens on the French side and our English language mods speak French reasonably well, they can/should act.
​From what's been happening here with @andy, I wouldn't consider it a flame war.

Also that gives me another suggestion idea: Mods shouldn't be allowed to unlock posts & post their own reasons about the certain topic, the posts are locked for a reason you know.
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1266
I totally disagree with many moderators but let's not transform this thread in particular cases an more drama instead let's focus on sales policy. I don't think that moderators act silly because of the language they speak, even if my case was about certain french moderators, but because they act by their own mood. This is why I insist on both, good guidelines for sales and decent moderators capable to understand these guidelines.
ashlobo Numista team
Joined: 30-Sep-2013
Posts: 950
Quote: "jacemcdonald"​​From what's been happening here with @andy, I wouldn't consider it a flame war.

​Also that gives me another suggestion idea: Mods shouldn't be allowed to unlock posts & post their own reasons about the certain topic, the posts are locked for a reason you know.
The reasons for Niels suggestions to amend sales policy may not stem from Flame wars, but whatever new changes made would have to take that into consideration

i totally agree on the other point though. Moderators should not be posting in topics that are locked. But the way the back end functionality of the forum is set up, I don’t think it’s possible to give moderators the power to lock/unlock threads but not post in there. However it’s a good guideline that should be in there
Outings administrator
johnspa
Joined: 27-Jun-2013
Posts: 778
Quote: "harryg"​I agree totally. I would also add a separate SALES category in the forum index. The "swaps and trade" category has morphed into a predominate sales board at this point. I joined this site for the purposes of swapping with an occasional purchase as the exception from established and reputable members. There are a multitude of sources I can purchase from. Lets keep this site what it was originally intended to be. A swap and trade site.
​I agree Harry. There should be a separate sales catagory from swaps.
Neil, you got my vote.
neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
I think everything that needs to be said about the moderators has already been said, this thread is to change something that actually has a chance to be changed. Please stick to discussion about the sales policy.

I do like the idea of a separate sales forum, but I doubt it would be approved, because the standard line is that this is primarily a swapping website and they don't want it to morph into just another Ebay. (hence the rules around posting only once a week at the most)
What? Me Worry
harryg
Joined: 26-Mar-2018
Posts: 528
The very fact that your concerns about sales on what is supposed to be primarily the swap forum IS the point. The swap forum has already morphed into Ebay lite.
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 6796
This will be discussed on admin meeting. For the x swaps in x months rule, as someone already pointed out, this was because of possible hacking of old accounts. Kind of insurance policy so noone would just come from nowhere and there ripped off buyers just because he HAD swaps in 2012 for example.

Lets see what we agree on.
Catalogue administrator, You can support my dream of becoming full time worker on Numista through Patreon if you wish: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek
Kristian Borisov
Joined: 6-Nov-2012
Posts: 170
Quote: "harryg"​I agree totally. I would also add a separate SALES category in the forum index. The "swaps and trade" category has morphed into a predominate sales board at this point. I joined this site for the purposes of swapping with an occasional purchase as the exception from established and reputable members. There are a multitude of sources I can purchase from. Lets keep this site what it was originally intended to be. A swap and trade site.
​i am also for separating SWAPS / TRADES

we all know it's very different

***or just ban the sales, problem sloved :D
in fact if there is only buying part (where people look for what they wish to have only) it would be more with the bible of that forum, it's not about the profit but only for helping each other getting what we looking for,right?
Kristian

Everything in my collection can be sold if it would make someone happier than me :)
Dutchgalego
Joined: 25-Sep-2011
Posts: 946
Definately agree with the suggestion to change sales policy.
It would be a big improvement for Numista.
Always ready to swap!  FAO and square coins have my interest.
neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
Quote: "Jarcek"​This will be discussed on admin meeting. For the x swaps in x months rule, as someone already pointed out, this was because of possible hacking of old accounts. Kind of insurance policy so noone would just come from nowhere and there ripped off buyers just because he HAD swaps in 2012 for example.

​Lets see what we agree on.
​But if someone has been active on the forums without meeting the swapping criteria then surely we can tell that their account has not been hacked, the rule seems to discriminate against people that aren't prolific swappers.
What? Me Worry
Andy289
Joined: 12-Mar-2013
Posts: 1266
You are right, we forget again what is the purpose of this policy.
klei92
Joined: 25-Dec-2018
Posts: 269
I mostly agree with everything you pointed out.

I am just going to leave you something related to this topic I tryed 2 months ago

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic86091.html
Se queres ca muller che queira, ten diñeiro na carteira
Pott
Joined: 17-Sep-2014
Posts: 326
deleted
peapod21
Joined: 18-Aug-2013
Posts: 50
I support the changes you've suggested.
neilithicman
Joined: 22-Nov-2017
Posts: 892
Quote: "Jarcek"​This will be discussed on admin meeting. For the x swaps in x months rule, as someone already pointed out, this was because of possible hacking of old accounts. Kind of insurance policy so noone would just come from nowhere and there ripped off buyers just because he HAD swaps in 2012 for example.

​Lets see what we agree on.
​Any update on this?
What? Me Worry
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 514
Hello,

Were any decisions made? I look forward to the legitimation of bulk lots (without request for description of every coin) and different lots in one thread:)
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
13coinmike
Joined: 4-Dec-2018
Posts: 101
Im ok with the changes except the,
Minimum of 20 completed swaps rated 10/10

We all know how easy it is to thwart this for good or bad, I've literally had threats during a swap that they would mess up my perfect rating. It only takes a lost mail item with a new user, then there is your bad rating for absolutely no fault of your on. Or Any Disgruntled person can fake nice, then slam you later.

Maybe a 9.5 out of 10 so that a remedy can be made or an option. Anyone can make a simple mistake.

-Also I wanted to speak to the general idea of sales. I like the idea of a new forum, listed as "sales"
Im tired of the petty complaining, this is the difference of Numista vs Ebay for me.

Ive offered super good deals so that new users can get a good start. Most of you older members already have coins, but many new users have nothing to trade with at ALL. If numismatic folks want to keep this hobby.career alive, then we must help others obtain this goal as storefront are massively closing. It is hard to start a collection via Ebay, you will go broke rather quick.

I have literally offered coins at 3 to 5 cents each, find that on Ebay. There is no where else I know to get coins this cheap and with a discussion with kindness.

I feel this is of an extreme value that such sales are offered, no one is making folks buy anything, it is called a prerogative.

I have had many many emails about "so glad you offer this" or "good to hear that you dont require a swap" or "loved your profile", etc., Wonder why Im getting these messages? Must be a need, it is most certainly funny to see other traders passing the coins around in trades that I sold. Yet they are the very complainers. Interesting.

I now get requests from several older users, loving this option. I mean users with 5 or more years membership, wonder what that means?

I have sold coins to 7 of the posters within this very own thread. And all before my 12 months tenure. Never got a complaint. Must be useful.

And the thought of the trades forum is nothing more than "look at my list" "swaps wanted", no real trading, seen anything for trade offered? supplies, coins flips, stamps, bags, NO
Just "Im ready to swap" or my favorite "I PM'd you" wow, we dont need to know that, Im sure the person can see weather they have a message or not.

There are so many ways to create a swap, you can look by location or a certain coin, or person, posting "I got stuff " is just so NOT informative, maybe we should make regulations regarding trade or swap posts also. I actually find the forum for this use, useless. No joke, we are all here to trade, weather we trade a coin, toothbrush or paper "we call money" still a trade, we just swapped $.

Swaps and Trade Rules
*Must have specific item to trade
*Must have what you expect to get
etc.

* seriously think about this...if you swap any monetized coins, then you paid for it!

Mike
Dont be scared of change, it is what makes the world go round.
13coinMike
SRV5490
Joined: 25-Sep-2015
Posts: 643
Instead of all the back and forth regarding sales on Numista why not post a message on the forum stating that you have coins for sale. Then direct potential buyers to your swap list or profile page where you can list your terms. I've purchased thousands of coins from members that used this method.
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 514
Quote: "SRV5490"​Instead of all the back and forth regarding sales on Numista why not post a message on the forum stating that you have coins for sale. Then direct potential buyers to your swap list or profile page where you can list your terms. I've purchased thousands of coins from members that used this method.
I think most of the people here are ready to sell their coins from swap list.

But often they want to sell some of the coins more than other and use the forum.

I usually want to sale coins in bulk and put there the coins I have in big amount and can propose them below market (by my estimation). This is a little bit different....
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
cro321
Joined: 25-Mar-2016
Posts: 539
Any news on this? I have two compelling lots to sell way below catalogue or Numista values but with the current policies I doubt I'll ever be able to sell on Numista since getting 12 swaps in 12 consecutive months is impossible for me. I would be opened to swapping the lots but I collect very specific coins not many members have.
muzz0000
Joined: 11-Dec-2013
Posts: 588
Quote: "neilithicman"​With the current dramas regarding sales on the site I propose we have another look at the sales policy.

​You need to ask why the rules were set up in the first place. As I understand it, it was to prevent new accounts being set up to sell coins and rip off Numista members. The question is, who would you trust more? A 3 month old account that has 12 swap ratings (who qualifies to sell under the current rules) or a member who has been on the site for several years with hundreds of top rated swaps who has only 10 swaps in the past year (who doesn't qualify under the current rules)?

​It's easy enough for numerous new accounts to be set up to provide fake feedback to get to the 12 required swaps, it's not easy to build up an account over numerous years and accumulate many positive swap feedback

​So I would like other members to give their feedback on what changes they would like to see to the rules. Here are the changes I would like to see

​1. Politeness is mandatory! Unchanged

​2. A member with a warning on his swap page or his profile is not allowed to sell through Numista as long as the warning is present. Unchanged

​3. Selling post minimum requirements:
​- Good quality pictures clearly showing obverse and reverse of the coin for sale (not generic pictures).
​- Weight, metal and diameter of the coin for sale.
​- A fixed price.

  • Good clear pictures

  • Fixed price

  • Description of the coin/coins for sale. (Some people sell larger lots of coins and shouldn't need to provide weight, metal and diameter of all the coins, just a comprehensible description of what is for sale)


​4. A new sale involves the creation of a new thread. I think it is tidier to list everything for sale on one thread rather than cluttering the forum with new threads for every sale.

​5. Bumping is tolerated but with parsimony. Unchanged

​6. A member asking for free coins or banknotes on Numista will not be allowed to sell through Numista for a subsequent period of 6 (six) months. Unchanged

​7. Selling member minimum requirements:
​- 3 (three) months membership.
​- Minimum of 12 (twelve) completed swaps rated 10/10 over past 12 (twelve) consecutive months.

  • 1 Year membership

  • Minimum of 20 completed swaps rated 10/10 (Increase the time someone has to have been a member of the site, increase the minimum number of swaps, but remove the requirement for them to be within the last 12 months)


​8. Exceptional nature of the transaction:
​- No recurrent sales.
​- Maximum of 1 (one) sale post per week.

This is ok as long as the rule about all sales being included in one post is in effect

​9. Mentions that may suggest a sale could occur instead of a swap are not allowed if it is deemed to circumvent above rules.

Unchanged

​Great Idea my support

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