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New Rus Principalities

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This message aims at: requesting the creation or the modification of a country in the catalog

Status: Opened
Votes: 3
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stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 223
Hi!

I think there are a few Rus Duchies missing from Numista. What do you think is the best way to add them? There would be coins available to be added from auctions for most of them. I'm not so familiar with some, so any expert opinions would be great!

I adapted a bit the structure from the catalog by Petrunin:

-- Rus Principalities
-- --------- Early Period
-- --------- --------- Kiev, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Tmutarakan, Principality of *
-- --------- Free Cities
-- --------- --------- Novgorod Republic *
-- --------- --------- Pskov Republic *
-- --------- --------- Torzhok, City of *

-- --------- Lithuania, Rus Grand Principality of (link)
-- --------- Lithuanian Rus Principalities
-- --------- --------- Kiev, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Lutsk, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Mstislavl, Lithuanian Mint of (link, need permission)
-- --------- --------- Navahrudak, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of
-- --------- --------- Podolsk, Lithuanian Principality of (link, need permission)
-- --------- --------- Smolensk, Lithuanian Mint of (link, need permission)
-- --------- --------- Smotrich, Lithuanian Mint of
-- --------- --------- Vilno, Lithuanian Mint of (link)
-- --------- --------- Volhynia, Lithuanian Principality of (link, need permission)
-- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of *
-- --------- Moscow Principalities
-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Kolomna, provincial coinage (link)
-- --------- --------- Mozhaysk, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Pereyaslavl-Zalesskiy, provincial coinage (link)
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov, Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov-Borovsk, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov-Maloyaroslavets, Principality of (link, need permission)
-- --------- --------- Tarusa, provincial coinage (link)
-- --------- --------- Uglich, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Vereya, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Zvenygorod, Principality of *
-- --------- Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal, Grand principality of *

-- --------- Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal principalities
-- --------- --------- Gorodets, Principality of *
-- --------- Red Ruthenia under Polish Rule (link)
-- --------- Ryazan, Grand principality of *
-- --------- Ryazan Principalities
-- --------- --------- Pronsk, Principality of * uncertain attribution
-- --------- Rostov and Yaroslavl
-- --------- --------- Rostov, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Yaroslavl, Principality of (link)
-- --------- Seversk Principalities
-- --------- --------- Bryansk, Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Karachev, Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Novgorod-Seversk, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Novosil, Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Po’ochye, Oka region (link)
-- --------- --------- Spash / Spazhsk, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Starodub , Principality of *
-- --------- Tver, Grand Principality of *
-- --------- Tver Principalities
-- --------- --------- Goroden, Principality of (link)
-- --------- --------- Kashin, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Mikulino, Principality of *

-- --------- United North-Eastern Russia (Moscow, Novgorod, Tver, Pskov)
-- --------- Vladimir, Grand Principality of (link)

* issuers already in Numista
** Lithuania: is it right to add it here? The Rus period coins are before 1400, earlier than all the coins in Lithuania. Same question for Ruthenia. Some historic insight would be great
*** Rus Duchies are in level 1, so we could structure this nicely down to level 3, and it'd be easier to navigate than a flat list?
**** Put "Moscow Grand Principality" under "Moscow Principalities"? or keep the Grand Principalities at level 2? (same for Tver). If we put them under the principalities, it might be neater for Novgorod and Ryazan - they only have one sub-principality each.
***** Under Lithuania: The "mints" are called "Fiefdoms" in the catalog. I think "mint" would be a bit more consistent with other issuers in Numista. The catalog also lists the principalities separate from the "Fiefdoms". Periods are a bit different too, so it's easy to distinguish the coins. I just combined them to keep the list more compact.

Thanks!
strato
Vinicius Peclat
Joined: 18-Mar-2019
Posts: 37
Eu acho que esse link poderia ajudá-lo.

https://bein-numismatics.ch/content/russian-duchies-and-rulers
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 6615
You keep opening cans here and there. :D I would like a referee opinion on this first.
Catalogue administrator, You can support my dream of becoming full time worker on Numista through Patreon if you wish: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek
Cyrillius Numista team
Joined: 5-Jun-2013
Posts: 1917
Hello.
Thank you.
I would like to say that when the categories of Russian principalities were created, it was impossible to create a currency or a country without a coin page. Perhaps now it is possible to do this? Well, I'm just used to that old system.
Well, I like the idea of a 3-level structure, but I'm afraid to admit that I may not understand how it will look. Worth trying?
Let me doubt that "most coins" will be available at (available) auctions.
If I am allowed to be a conservative, I would suggest not just copying / pasting the list of known principalities, but adding only those that have coin pages.
It’s also not entirely clear to me how, for example, in the category of "Grand Moscow Principality" the Grand Moscow Principality itself should look like an issuer?
I would not include the category "United North-Eastern Russia." This seems like a convention. You can confine yourself to the Grand Moscow Principality and indicating the city of coinage.
Red Ruthenia / Red Russia under Polish rule. Perhaps.
stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 223
Jarcek, so sorry:snif:. But I am really just trying to help, hope it's okay0:). It sparked my interest as I was working on the flags.

@ Cyrillius,

Thank you for your feedback!
Quote: "Cyrillius"...it was impossible to create a currency or a country without a coin page. Perhaps now it is possible to do this?

Now it is possible indeed! The two coins I recently added belonged to the two empty Rus Principalities.
Quote: "Cyrillius"​​Let me doubt that "most coins" will be available at (available) auctions.

You are right, they are not easy to come by. But most have coins available. I added links in the first post to auctions. Some of them are from a website I recently contacted for permission, I marked them accordingly. Plus there are some older Russian catalogs from the 19th century which are in the public domain. I suppose we can also scan images from there as a last resort.
Quote: "Cyrillius"​​​If I am allowed to be a conservative, I would suggest not just copying / pasting the list of known principalities, but adding only those that have coin pages.

Thank you Vicinius for the great list, but I agree with Cyrillius - we should only add Duchies that have issued coins.
Quote: "Cyrillius"​​It’s also not entirely clear to me how, for example, in the category of "Grand Moscow Principality" the Grand Moscow Principality itself should look like an issuer?

I think there are two options, at level 3 or at level 2:

-- --------- Moscow Principalities
-- --------- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of
-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of
...

or:

-- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of
-- --------- Moscow Principalities
-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of
...
Quote: "Cyrillius"​I would not include the category "United North-Eastern Russia." This seems like a convention. You can confine yourself to the Grand Moscow Principality and indicating the city of coinage.

United NE Russia issued coins from 4 Grand Duchies (Moscow, Novgorod, Tver, Pskov), all can be found with photos. They could be listed to their respective Duchies right? Otherwise it would be odd to put a coin from Novgorod under Moscow?

best
strato
Cyrillius Numista team
Joined: 5-Jun-2013
Posts: 1917
Quote: "stratocaster"​United NE Russia issued coins from 4 Grand Duchies (Moscow, Novgorod, Tver, Pskov), all can be found with photos. They could be listed to their respective Duchies right? Otherwise it would be odd to put a coin from Novgorod under Moscow?



It does not seem strange to me to put a coin in the Moscow Grand Principality and indicate the mint / city in brackets (Veliky Novgorod, for example). All these cities continued to issue their coins, but under the rule of Moscow.

I’m not sure that we should single out local city / provincial coinage (for example, Kolomna) as issuers. This is not an independent coinage.

And I still doubt the Vladimir Principality. The coinage seems to coincide with the union with the Moscow Grand Principality.
stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 223
Cyrillius, thanks for the feedback. Here is an update of the list:

-- Rus Principalities
-- --------- Early Period
-- --------- --------- Kiev, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Tmutarakan, Principality of *
-- --------- Free Cities
-- --------- --------- Novgorod Republic *
-- --------- --------- Pskov Republic *
-- --------- --------- Torzhok, City of *

-- --------- Lithuania, Rus Grand Principality of
-- --------- Lithuanian Rus Principalities
-- --------- --------- Kiev, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of
-- --------- --------- Lutsk, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of
-- --------- --------- Mstislavl, Lithuanian Mint of
-- --------- --------- Navahrudak, Lithuanian Mint and Principality of
-- --------- --------- Podolsk, Lithuanian Principality of
-- --------- --------- Smolensk, Lithuanian Mint of
-- --------- --------- Smotrich, Lithuanian Mint of
-- --------- --------- Vilno, Lithuanian Mint of
-- --------- --------- Volhynia, Lithuanian Principality of
-- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of *
-- --------- Moscow Principalities
-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Mozhaysk, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov-Borovsk, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Serpukhov-Maloyaroslavets, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Uglich, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Vereya, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Zvenygorod, Principality of *

-- --------- Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal, Grand principality of *
-- --------- Nizhny Novgorod-Suzdal principalities
-- --------- --------- Gorodets, Principality of *
-- --------- Red Ruthenia under Polish Rule
-- --------- Ryazan, Grand principality of *
-- --------- Ryazan Principalities
-- --------- --------- Pronsk, Principality of *
-- --------- Rostov and Yaroslavl
-- --------- --------- Rostov, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Yaroslavl, Principality of
-- --------- Seversk Principalities
-- --------- --------- Bryansk, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Karachev, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Novgorod-Seversk, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Novosil, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Po’ochye, Oka region
-- --------- --------- Spash / Spazhsk, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Starodub , Principality of *
-- --------- Tver, Grand Principality of *
-- --------- Tver Principalities
-- --------- --------- Goroden, Principality of
-- --------- --------- Kashin, Principality of *
-- --------- --------- Mikulino, Principality of *
-- --------- Vladimir, Grand Principality of (??)
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 6615
Ok, one thing after another. Are there any principalities you want me to create just now? Without making any structure?

I will be trying to create similar structure within Swiss Cantons, so we can see there how it looks.
Catalogue administrator, You can support my dream of becoming full time worker on Numista through Patreon if you wish: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek
Cyrillius Numista team
Joined: 5-Jun-2013
Posts: 1917
I did not quite understand what the advantage of the 3-level system in Switzerland is. But please do as you see fit.
I would suggest now not to create new countries / levels / currencies, but to reorganize the existing principalities in the new 3-level system. (However, it is still not clear to me how in the "level" the Great Principality of Tver to indicate the coins of this principality itself?)
And let me ask one inconvenient question (for the umpteenth time)? Why should the Russian principalities not be in the section of Russia (like India or Germany)?
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 6615
You can have a look here (sort by face value) : https://en.numista.com/catalogue/boii_celts_section-1.html?o=v

​These different Boii tribes are issuers, they are basically 4th level country.

That means they are not shown in the country list itself, but they can be seen only after opening Boii section. Otherwise, they count for statistics, have their own currencies, rulers, referees etc. I will also try to convince Xavier to make these also optionally visible in the country list. This would also apply here, as Rus principalities would be 4th level. (That is because, well, they are now placed under Russia. (This will probably take 24 hours to update at most) <:D)

I will revisit this after update, and won't be adding/modifying anything until then.
Catalogue administrator, You can support my dream of becoming full time worker on Numista through Patreon if you wish: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek
stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 223
Thanks Jarcek!

For me, the only reason I opened this thread was to create the flags for all the principalities, also for missing ones which might be added in the future.
Otherwise it's up to Cyrillius.

Re. Switzerland, I'll write a quick update in the other thread.

Best
Strato
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 482
I do not support the idea to put the Principalities under Russia... Some of them may be put under Golden Horde or Ukraine (especially to put Kiev, Principality of under Russia may be quite political decision:)) or Lithuania. I think it shall be separate from Russia as well as Kievan Rus now or Low countries feudal...
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
Jarcek Numista team
Joined: 22-Dec-2014
Posts: 6615
I also believe that some, probably most of which will be Lithuanian ones, should be put somewhere else.
Catalogue administrator, You can support my dream of becoming full time worker on Numista through Patreon if you wish: https://www.patreon.com/Jarcek
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 482
I think current structure with one separate first level issuer is the best solution:) At least for me as somebody who is interested in the coins from this time and territory it seems much more useful rather then try to find them under separate issuers.

I think usability shall be on the first place and some things like similar structure of the catalogue (to make them "like German States" etc.) on the second
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
Sulfur Numista team
Joined: 11-Jun-2016
Posts: 1565
Hm... I have three comments. 0:)

-----

Regarding the placement of these issuers: I understand why they were not under Russia before, and think it would be slightly odd if they were kept under Russia now. While splitting the different areas between their respective modern-day countries would solve an overall issue... that seems inefficiant to me. I imagine keeping all areas together would be the best option.

My understanding on these places is... mediocre. But I always thought the Rus' Principalities would work better as a sub-issuer of Kievan Rus' (and I do understand why that place is a first-level country). So my question: is there any particular reason why the Rus' Principalities would not work under Kievan Rus'?

-----

Second, it seems to me Rus is typically followed by an apostrophe (Rus') because of a transliteration from its Slavonic name. I do not think it is technically necessary, but it appears to be more common. So... should we also include the apostrophe?

(My vote is for yes. 0:))

-----

And lastly:
Quote: "stratocaster"​I think there are two options, at level 3 or at level 2:

​-- --------- Moscow Principalities
-- --------- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of
​-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of
​...

​or:

-- --------- Moscow, Grand principality of
​-- --------- Moscow Principalities
​-- --------- --------- Dmitrov, Principality of


​I was a little confused by this at first, but I... may understand what you are trying to do. Still confused about the geographical history of all these places, but from your ordering, was the Principality of Dmitrov an area within the Grand principality of Moscow (along with other principalities)? If so, take something simple like Hungary. The format is:

Hungary
----- Hungarian states
----- Hungary

Under the country of Hungary, you have the overall issuer of Hungary, as well as the various states all under their own sub-issuer.

Assuming Rus' Principalities is a first-level issuer, Your option two seems like it is set-up to be a fourth-level issuers disguised as a third-level issuer, if that makes sense.

So option two could be more consistantly written as this:

Rus' Principalities
​----- Moscow, Grand principality of
​---------- Moscow, Grand principality of
​---------- Moscow Principalities
--------------- Dmitrov, Principality of

(List is reverse-alphabetized for clarity. :°)

We do not really have proper fourth-level issuers (in regards to the country list), and if the Rus' Principalities are to be moved under a different country, I think we will definitely not have proper fifth-level issuers. I think a better option would be something like:

Rus' Principalities
​----- Moscow, Grand principality of
---------- Dmitrov, Principality of
​---------- Moscow, Grand principality of

With all that being said, if the Principality of Dmitrov was not actually an area within the Grand principality of Moscow and I just misunderstood everything... then all I said may not actually work, and my apologies for that. z)
Referee for the Avars, the Burgundians, Courland, Danish Estonia, Dorpat, Etruria, the Gepids, Gotland, the Herulians, Livonia, the Lombards, Narva, Ösel-Wiek, the Ostrogoths, Reval, Riga, and the Vandals; co-referee for Livoestonika.
stratocaster
Joined: 30-Aug-2019
Posts: 223
@Sulfur,
re. your three points:
-
I agree, Rus should not be under Russia. Hungarian States are not the best example. There too, you have parts of Croatia, Serbia, Romania, Montenegro... under Hungary. I can see why this can be a sensitive topic but it seems to be a can of worms. B. i think these issuers should be kept as independent as possible, otherwise it will upset some people.
--
Rus' +1 vote
---
yes, I think they were generally small places run with a bit of autonomy by a vassal, junior family or by the Duke's children. Your last proposal woul work very well i think.

----
​​​​​​@Jarcek, you are completely right. Lithuania, Ruthenia, Vilnius do not belong under Russia. But also now, putting Tmutarakan under Russia... With all the current issues in Crimea, is insensitive. Also Kiev. Too political in my opinion.

The current system seems to be a bit rigid. A non hierarchical system with tags would be great. So i can tag Kiev with all its related historic and geographic connections and interested collectors of #Russia, #Rus', #Ukraine etc can find it easily.
---
@Grinya, i see your point. But as more principalities are added, the structure would help. The two catalogs i checked, Petrunin and (?) are structured like this.


Best
strato
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 482
Personally I'd prefer to follow a structure of some existing catalogue, e.g. Huletski-Petrunin-Fishman catalogue (which exists in English version) which has separated Rus' Principalities as:
1. Grand Duchy of Moscow (Muscovy)
2. Local Muscovy duchies

- Serpuhov
- Galich-Zvenigorod
- Mozhaysk
- Dmitrov
- Uglich
3. Grand Duchy of Nizhegorod-Suzdal (maybe separated into independent, Moscow administration and reformed coinage as 3rd level issuers)
4. Duchies of Rostov and Yaroslavl
- Rostov
- Yaroslavl
*maybe for us it makes sense to have Rostov and Yaroslavl as separate 2nd level issuers, but they are together in the catalogue
5. Grand Duchy of Ryazan
6. Seversk Duchies

- Duchy of Bryansk
- Duchy of Starodub
- Duchy of Novgorod-Seversk (including «Chernigov trident» countermarked coins)
- Duchy of Karachev
- Duchy of Spash (or Spazhsk)
7. Grand Duchy of Lithuania
8. Grand Duchy of Tver

- Tver
- Kashin
- Mikulin
- Goroden
- Occupation of Tver by Moscow
9. Free cities
- Novgorod
- Pskov
- Novy Torg
10. United North-Eastern Russia
11. Red Ruthenia under Polish rule


Such "small" issuers like Maloyaroslavets, Borovsk, Vereya, Navahrudak etc. are not shown as separate issuers and may be showed under corresponding ruling authorities. It helps to not to overload our catalogue

The question is where to put Tmutarakan in this structure... Maybe as a separate issuer as Kievan Rus...

And I'm 100% confident that putting the Rus' Principalities under Russia is a mistake! Please return it back!
Quote: "Quote from this catalogue"​Concepts of «Rus», «Russia» and «Russian» in the late medieval times were used by the contemporaries in a geographical sense of a «civilized land». The concept was used outside of the political, ideological and (often) ethnic or religious considerations. The concept covered the wider lands where the dominant culture was the culture originally established by the Kievan Rus. The «civilized lands» of Rus at this time were summarized in the «List of the Russian cities, near and remote» («Списoк русских
городов дальних and ближних»), composed in the last quarter of the XIV century and included in many annals and compedia for the next two centuries.







SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)
January First-of-May
Joined: 10-Apr-2016
Posts: 722
As far as Tmutarakan is concerned, technically, the city of Tmutarakan (modern Taman) is on the unambiguously-Russian side of the strait - and apparently in some periods (but not in others) the principality didn't even control any land on the other side!

(I personally would have put the 11th century Principality of Tmutarakan under Kievan Rus on chronological grounds anyway.)
Grinya
Joined: 8-May-2017
Posts: 482
Yes, I agree that Tmutarakan shall be definitely put under Kievan Rus))
SWAP LIST (lots of Russia (from wire to 2018) + Tannu Tuva, Goths from Taman, Crimea, Grand principality of Moscow, Siberia, Tatarstan, Golden Horde, Genoa, Bukhara, Khiva etc.)

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