German "Länderbanknoten" - how to classify?

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This message aims at: requesting the creation or the modification of an issuing entity

Status: Rejected
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In pre-1945 Germany there was a 3-grade-system of banknotes, first the issues from Reichsbank (general issues), second the "Ländernoten" from the federal states and third the Notgeld issues (municipal). At the moment, we have Reichsbanknoten and Länderbanknoten mixed up in the section Germany 1871-1948. I would suggest to give the Länderbanknoten their own section separated both from general issues and municipal Notgeld. What do you think would be the best way of organizing them? A new level 2 next to Germany 1871-1948 and Notgeld or some kind of sub-level of Germany 1871-1948? Introducing "issuing entities" for all the Banks that were issuing notes?

Best Regards,
Michael
If the States' banknotes were issued prior to the overthrow of the German Empire in November 1918, then they should be listed under the relevant state - whether it was a Kingdom, a Grand Duchy, or a Principality.

If the States' banknotes were issued after the overthrow of the German Empire, then they should be listed under the relevant state in the Weimar Republic section.

Aidan.
Hello,
I will reply here.

You mean something like this?:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note209391.html
Did these only circulate in Württemberg?

If so, they can go in here:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/wurttemberg_kingdom-2.html#c_wurttemberg_kingdom6857

For post 1918 states, I suppose we can add issuers (e.g. "Württemberg, Federal state of"). Would they work in "German states"?

regards
:wiz:
To be honest, I'm not very happy with mixing up Thaler and Mark currencies in the German States section, because pre and after 1871/1873 we have completely different monetary systems and political systems. Until 1871, these states were countries with (mostly) full independence like Denmark or Belgium with just some common standards on a less level than for example todays EU. Their currencies had several standards so that for example a Kronenthaler from Hesse had another value than a Thaler from Prussia etc. After 1871 they became simple federal states like Graubünden or Kansas with limited power only on some policy fields like culture or police organisation.

Same with the monetary system. You might could pay with a Prussian Thaler in Bavaria, but the merchant had to look the value/conversion rate up in his booklet (same he did when you came with a 5 Francs coin from the Latin Monetary Union). After Mark was invented in 1873, all coins and banknotes with Mark value circulated everywhere in Germany so the 100 Mark Württemberg note and the 5 Mark Saxony coin were also legal tender in Bavaria etc.

In general, we should have a common roof for all German coins (1 Pfennig together with 5 Mark) and banknotes from 1873 until 1923/1924 as they were part of an integral monetary system. I think it's a bit confusing to have the 1 Mark coin in Germany 1871-1948 and the 2 Mark coin together with some old Thaler coins under German States. I wouldn't repeat this inconsistency again with the banknotes as this classification was inherited from the KM catalogs that ignore the political and monetary system behind just because there is "the same king on the coin" (all German catalogs, coin trade and numismatics are organised in pre 1871/73 and after 1871/73, that KM mixture can be found nowhere else). Another problem that occurs ever and ever again with this classification ist that it breaks up in 1918 whether there was no break neither in monetary system (1923/1924) nor in federal system (Bavaria, Württemberg, Prussia etc continued unchanged, they just scared away their kings and carried on).

To be short, I disapprove to split Württemberg or Bavaria Mark Länderbanknoten in different sections, I would either let them where they are or have a new common category or currency or something for them, but definitely not under German States that should be reserved for pre-1873 Thaler/Gulden money.

Sorry for being exhausting again 0:)
Under the German Empire, only coins from 1 Pfennig to 1 Mark was reserved for striking by the Empire.

The 2 Mark to 20 Mark coins was reserved for striking by the States themselves.

Bavaria & Wurttemberg were more independent than most other German States, both being Kingdoms - as they retained the right to have their own armies, as did Prussia, separate from the Imperial German Army.

Banknotes of the German States should be split between the Empire & the Weimar Republic.

Aidan.
I see your point, but at the same time someone who collects Bavarian coins would appreciate a single continuous section with both Thalers and Marks from 1805 to 1918. To them, it would also be odd to have to jump sections to find coins from the same Kingdom.

I see it as simply a matter of preference, and I don't think there is anything wrong with splitting German states either like this:
-- Bavaria, Kingdom of (1805-1918)
-- Bavaria, Federal state of (1918-...)

or:
-- Bavaria, Kingdom of (1805-1871)
-- Bavaria, Federal state of (1871-...)

Both are technically correct. We could also go for:
-- Bavaria, Kingdom and Federal state of (1805-...)

In general, Numista tends now not to split issuers based on administrative changes. These are dealt with in the "ruling authority field". Same as monetary reforms - we have the "currency" field. So I think the last proposal would be consistent with the rest of the catalog. And you can have there all the notes and all the coins. How does this sound?

In any case, to make this change, apuking (referee for German states) would need to be on board because the coin section should be coordinated too.

Best
:wiz:
Hm, I will get a bit fussy at this point and would deny that pre-1871 Bavaria and after-1871 Bavaria are the same kingdom, as the first one was an independent country whereas the second one was a dependent federal state as part of another country. Anyway, I don't see a sense in setting a break in 1918 as nothing changed except that the king was gone (which is not a that big issue as he had no say even before).

We could either set the break in 1871/1873 from kingdom to federal state or having a continous issuer from 1806 until... I think the last Länderbanknoten were allowed in 1936... with the question how to name that issuer in a good way. I will ask apuking about that.
That was already a discussion but many years ago.

Back then we did not have issuers or any simple way of splitting the State currencies so in the format we had in the past it was cleaner to keep these coins under German States. That was also decided to keep it this way by vote on the forum and by Xavier.

I have to be honest, I got used to the way it is now so do not see a needed rush to change it.
In the past I had requested the creation of the German Empire (1871-1918) to be listed as a country. Which would then include 1 Pfennig coins as well as Gold 20 Mark coins but back then my request had been denied.

In a same way, if listed under Germany 1871-1948 I also find it strange to be listed together with coins of the third reich.

Some non mark coins have also been issued by the States after 1871 even against the consignment of the German Empire such as these pieces for example. 1871 Germany was unified but with some states still with own power.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14248.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18411.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces4229.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces40348.html

One pattern coin that I was always wondering where to list is this one
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=547271
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
I think splitting German stated in 1871 would create some issues with coins like these:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14248.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces4229.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18411.html

These were issued before and after the Union.
Sorry, my point was already made by apuking, I hadn't seen that
:wiz:
I don't see a problem by listing coins related to the Thaler/Gulden heximal system under German States and coins related to the decimal/Mark system under Germany 1871-1948/German Empire or something as every coin is clearly relatable to either the old or the new system (this is how all the printed coin catalogs do it by the way). The decimal system got established step by step between 1871 and 1876, so the year 1871 is no fix point, the classification appears out of the currency reform.

I think the current classification of German Empire is a bit paradoxical same in general as in details (there we have also Reuss-Obergreiz and Reuss-Schleiz as issuers in Empire until 1919 - I bet this terminology can't be found anywhere else as these states ended in 1768 (!) by fusion of Reuss-Obergreiz and Reuss-Untergreiz to Reuss Elder Line and 1848 by fusion of Reuss-Schleiz and Reuss-Ebersdorf to Reuss Junior Line). But I will be also ok with keeping things as they are, it was just a suggestion from a German historical perspective.
Status changed to Rejected (Compendium, 18-Jan-2023, 12:50)

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