How to tell obverse from reverse [solved]

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I know that the side of a coin that has a depiction of a ruler or other person is called the obverse. If there is no person depicted on a coin, then I know that the reverse often has some seal, coat of arms or other national symbol. But what if there is no person depicted and no seal, or at least no seal that I recognize? How can I determine which side is the obverse and which is the reverse? I thought I could go by which side has the face value on it, but I've noticed that the value is sometimes on the obverse (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces128955.html) and sometimes on the reverse (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136403.html). Is there any definite way of determining the obverse and reverse sides of a coin?
In my opinion the side with the face-value, in figures, is the obverse. It is a coin, ment to pay things, after all, isn't?
...you can run,  but you can't hide...
The mint says what is what (or the law concerning the issue of the coin). There are some traditions but there are countless exceptions to the "rules".

Personally I don't care to much about the "official" designation I put the denomination that has a western format (if it has one) up front in my folders or if it's a series like 2€ CCs, US quarters or the 500 yen prefectures the changing design side.
Quote: "yvon"​In my opinion the side with the face-value, in figures, is the obverse. It is a coin, ment to pay things, after all, isn't?
​I thought the same thing, but look at the coins I linked to above. One has the value on the obverse side, and the other has the value on the reverse. And the second one doesn't have the value in figures, only letters.
Quote: "Idolenz"​The mint says what is what (or the law concerning the issue of the coin). There are some traditions but there are countless exceptions to the "rules".
​So, since laws vary from country to country, and we may have no idea what the laws were when older coins were minted, there's really no way of telling?
The Wiki article has a relative good summary if you haven't read it already.
Quote: "Idolenz"​The Wiki article has a relative good summary if you haven't read it already.
​Thank you for that link. The article states: "Generally, the side of a coin with the larger-scale image will be called the obverse". That should help with most of the coins I'm wondering about.
Status changed to Solved (K.E.T., 8-Aug-2020, 18:52)
In my world the side with the date is the obverse. Anyone else like to see the date on the front?
Quote: "blue-m"​In my world the side with the date is the obverse. Anyone else like to see the date on the front?
​I don't care which side it's on, I just wish it was consistent. American quarters, for example, have the date on the obverse side (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces55.html ), except for the state quarters, which have the date on the reverse side (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces604.html). Icelandic coins have the date on the reverse side (my avatar is the obverse side of a 1942 Icelandic 1 eyrir coin, and the date is on the other side - https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces16025.html).
Technically, obverse is the side where you can identify the country it is from. Even though most mints and catalogues would say otherwise.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Technically, obverse is the side where you can identify the country it is from. Even though most mints and catalogues would say otherwise.
​The one thing that I've always figured was a sure way to tell was if there was a person on one side. That side is the obverse side. So, what do you think of this coin: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1492.html Which side is the obverse - the one with the portrait or the one with the country name?
Country name of course, this one is wrong on Numista. <:D
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Country name of course, this one is wrong on Numista. <:D
​The obverse side is often called "heads", because it often has a portrait on it (a head). But what about this coin: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces6898.html? Which side is "tails"? Not only does it have two heads, but it doesn't mention the country or the value.
The Queen. Monarch is the representazion of the country. ;)
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​The Queen. Monarch is the representazion of the country. ;)
​Yes, we know that because we know who Queen Elizabeth and Winston Churchill are. It was really just a joke about a two-headed coin. But what if we had no idea who these people were, and the lettering was illegible?
Then it would be just random until proved right or wrong. ;)
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Then it would be just random until proved right or wrong. ;)
​I guess that's really the answer to my question - it's random. In fact, it's so random that, in spite of the fact that I'm Icelandic and have been using Icelandic coins all my life, I discovered this morning that I had the obverse and reverse wrong on Icelandic coins. Which side of this coin would you call obverse? (No fair looking it up).

Second one of course. <:D
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Second one of course. <:D
​I assume you say that because that's the side that has the country's name on it (or did you look it up). Here's my logic: In monarchies, the obverse side of a coin will most often have a portrait of the reigning king or queen, while the reverse side may have various images, often some kind of royal symbol or coat of arms, e.g. this Danish 20 kroner coin from 1914: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces25627.html Note that this coin has the country name on the obverse side (the side with the king's portrait), and on the reverse it has the value, the date and the national arms of Denmark. At the time that coin was minted, Iceland was under Danish rule. Here's an Icelandic coin from that time period: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces14571.html If we assume, as you do, that the obverse is the side with the country's name on it, then the picture on the right is the obverse. It has the country's name and the value, while the reverse has the date and the Icelandic coat of arms and King Christian X's monogram (CXR). The coat of arms is on the reverse side of both Danish and Icelandic coins from that time.

Iceland declared its independence from Denmark in 1944. After that, the crown was removed from the coat of arms, and instead we got the 4 legendary protective spirits, as can be seen on this coin: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1543.html The seal and the date are still on the reverse side, with the value and the country's name on the obverse side. We changed our currency in 1981, and what had previously been 100 old krónur became 1 new króna. That currency is still in use today, and looks like this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1551.html The coat of arms is gone, but the protective spirits, who are on the coat of arms remain on one side of the coin, as well as the date, which has always been on the reverse side. The only thing that has changed is that the country's name has been moved to the reverse side. Does that make it the obverse side? It seems to me that, to be consistent, the side with the protective spirits on it should be considered the reverse, and the side with the value in numbers should be the obverse, and the moving of a single word shouldn't change anything. I learned this morning, while searching for something else, that the central bank of Iceland disagrees with me, which just goes to show that even central banks can be wrong.
Interesting discussion
Hmm, very interesting.

This all comes down ultimately to one question. Since obverse side should be the one with "clear country identificator", as it should technically be done on all coins, so foreigners can see what country is this or that coin from, but also on Numista, where this is rule that should be consistently applied.

Question I had on mind is, what is exactly "clear country identificator". With monarchy, it is portrait or monogram. Also, most countries have their names on the side with coat of arms. So during that republic time, my personal opinion would be that the name of the country should be considered obverse, thus making some Icelandic coins wrong in the catalogue.
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Question I had on mind is, what is exactly "clear country identificator". With monarchy, it is portrait or monogram. Also, most countries have their names on the side with coat of arms. So during that republic time, my personal opinion would be that the name of the country should be considered obverse, thus making some Icelandic coins wrong in the catalogue.

​Good question. I have a coin with the lettering "JOANNES VI D G PORT BRAS ET ALG REX". If you figure out that Joannes is equal to John, then John VI is easy to find on Wikipedia. There are others with the same name and number, but they can be ruled out by the date. Wikipedia says that he was "King of the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves", but which of those places is the coin from? The Numista catalogue says it's Brazil, but how can you tell that from the coin itself (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces28705.html)?
This is probably one of those Numismatically established truths. <:D Usually, these are supported by scientific evidence other than the coins themselves.
Catalogue administrator
In my opinion, a coin is a device with some value, to pay things, in the first place. So the visible face-value should
be considered the obverse.
No matter who's head or coat of arms or whatsoever is on it.
Anything else as face-value is the reverse, if there are values on both sides, than the one in figures is obverse.
So the Icelandic coin, the side with the '10 kr' and the fishes is the obverse.
...you can run,  but you can't hide...
Quote: "yvon"​So the Icelandic coin, the side with the '10 kr' and the fishes is the obverse.

​I agree. Like I said, I'm Icelandic and have been using Icelandic coins all my life, and I have always thought of the side with the fish as the obverse. There's an Icelandic website called "Vísindavefurinn" (The Icelandic Web of Science - https://www.visindavefur.is/ - Click on "EN" for the English version), which answers all kinds of questions from people about many different fields of study, including biology, geology, history archaeology and, yes, even numismatics. I was browsing there to see if I could find information about when Iceland first got its own coins. I didn't find that, but I did find an article about the question of whether the land wights (landvættir / protective spirits) were on the obverse or reverse of Icelandic coins. The article said that, according to the Central Bank of Iceland, they are on the obverse side. They provided a link, but I got a 404 error when I clicked on it. The article (https://www.visindavefur.is/svar.php?id=4041), and therefore the link, are old (from 2004, which is old in terms of the Internet), which probably explains the error. Assuming it's correct, it seems like a pretty arbitrary decision to me.
On Canadian coins, the name of the country went from obverse to reverse in 1901─1902, but there is no doubt that the side showing the ruling authority (queen or king) is the obverse. As in most cases, the denomination is on the reverse. Note that many issuing authorities didn't even use to indicate the denomination until modern times, including the UK, France, etc. As for the date, it can be on different sides for different denominations, such as in Canada.

I had an interesting discussion with BluHawk not long ago about the obverse and reverse of the coins of the princely states in India. In some of those states such as Kutch, one side is in Urdu with the name of the British monarch; on the other side, the local ruler is in a local language (such as Nagani for Kutch). There is only writing; no major portrait or symbol depicted, so which is the obverse? It is clear that the obverse is the side naming the supreme authority, i.e. the British monarch, whether we like colonial powers or not. The Krause catalogue is right to show the Urdu side on the left, i.e. as the obverse.

Now, what about Mexican coins? Look at your Mexican coins from the 1950s for example. You always have the eagle & snake on one side with the name of the country and, on the other side, different types, including some heads. But it is clear that the obverse is the eagle's side. The portraits are those of historical figures that are not Mexico's ruling authorities. The eagle & snake is an official allegory of the Republic of Mexico and it is shown on the flag.

You might object to this by looking north of the Mexican border at the USofA, a Republic like Mexico. In the case of the Seated Liberty half dollar, to take but one example, you could argue that the obverse happens to be the side with the eagle, where there is so much more information provided: the symbolic eagle, the denomination, and even the name of the country, the other side showing only a seated Liberty plus the year and the 13 stars of the founding states. However, when you look at the whole series of US coins in this period, it seems logical that the side with a representation of Liberty (seated, head only...) is the obverse. The other side is less consistent in its types: eagle or inscription in wreath. It could be argued that it is consistent in having the name of the country, and yes, I agree. It is important, however, that the head of liberty is a response to having the head of the monarch on the British and colonial coinages used before independence. History matters.

EDIT: In the case of your 1 Eyrir coin, K.E.T., the date is actually on the obverse. And that's why that picture is on the left, where the obverse should be. Numista and Krause World Coins have it right. Both also have it right for the 10 kr coin.

EDIT 2: Name of the state or issuing authority: Yes, it can be an argument to decide which side is the obverse, but this is far from universal. In the case of the Morgan dollar, mentioned above, you could argue that the obverse is the side with the country's name, but by the same principle, you will have to go against two centuries of American numismatics and switch all the obverse sides into the reverse. Have a look, for example, at the entire circulating coinage in 1921. For historical reasons, the head of Liberty, and then of deceased presidents, is the obverse.

Interestingly, UK coins don't have the name of the country on them (like, e.g., ancient Greek coins). For example, BRIT: OMN: means more than just the UK, whether the coin circulated outside the UK or not. Note also that the UK was the first nation to issue postage stamps, in 1840, and they therefore didn't feel the need to indicate the issuing country, just like the Internet started in the US not with a ".us" extension but with ".net" and ".com" extensions. In 2000 years from now, if they relied on the countries' extensions to decide where the internet was most prominent, they would conclude that Canada (".ca") or Pakistan (".pk") were way ahead of the US...

So, the name of the country can be an argument to decide obverse vs. reverse, but it is far from being definitive.
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The general rule is that the side with the "highest" authority on a coin is the obverse and the other side is the reverse. It has nothing to do with value...
A gallery of my coins and artifacts can been seen on FORVM Ancient Coins
As a general rule, yes, but it works much better for monarchical regimes. With the American and French revolutions, and the spread of the democratic system of government, things have become much less clear.

If we compare the US and France, it seems easier to use logical arguments in the case of France, since the side with the personification of Liberté (or other allegory) also bears the name of the country and "replaces" the king with his name and title(s) ─ for example this 3rd Republic coin and this 5th Republic, nouveau franc coin.

It is more common for the denomination and date to be on the reverse since the obverse is more likely to be crowded with a head or coat-of-arms.

There is also the technical argument that the obverse die is at the bottom in the striking process. When there is a head, that's almost always the bottom die, i.e. the obverse.
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