As Numista has grown from a relatively small group of collectors exchanging coins with each other, into a prominent numismatic source, it is inevitable that the dealers, capitalists and investors will move in looking to make a quick buck from the inexperienced. These are not collectors, just businessmen or more accurately wannabe businessmen. They care nothing about coins other than as a source of easy money.
I think it's well past time to start taking a few steps towards minimising the exposure of our members to the wiles of these people. While it is impossible to avoid being scammed entirely, there are several steps which EVERYONE should take to minimise the risk.
Basically, you need to consider three things: the source, the offer and the payment.
First, the source:
Are you really willing to send your hard-earned money to a drive-by poster with a single post to his name, zero feedback, who joined the site 10 minutes ago and about whom the only thing you know is his email address? If so then you deserve to be ripped off and here's your Darwin Award. You can stop reading now and go back to buying "real gold bullions bar" for $2 on eBay. Everyone else, please see below.
Of course not everyone is so blatant so we need to dig a little deeper. Is the seller making a few low value trades to build a little credibilty before moving in for the kill? Someone who has been swapping pocket change for a month and suddenly lists hundreds or rare coins is probably going to steal from you. Before considering a trade, look at the person's profile and feedback. If you go to the list of coins to trade you may see a large warning in big red letters. This ought to be self explanatory.
Good feedback from other users is the most telling piece of information. A person who has been a member for years, with scores of trades, isn't going to rip you off. However, be aware that the crooks know this too and will use sock puppet accounts to pass good feedback back and forth relating to imaginary trades. It's happened and it's happened here. If someone has say five rave reviews look at the person(s) giving the feedback. Sometimes the scammers are dumb enough to sign up all their accounts on the same day, with the same location!
Scam artists are not always so dumb unfortunately. Some will have elaborate tales of hardship meant to elicit sympathy from their intended victims. These are not just the most successful thieves, they are also the most repellent. Taking advantage of another person's stupidity or inexperience is the way the world works I'm afraid, taking advantage of another person's good nature is beneath contempt.
Don't believe ANYTHING you read on the interwebs. Stick to what you can verify with your own common sense and critical thinking.
Now, the offer:
Coin forums which allow a BST (buy sell and trade) function are easy pickings for scammers. eBay and similar venues leave a clear paper trail which can be shown to your credit card company or intermediary when disputing the charges (more on this later). Numista doesn't have a BST section, aguably it should, but that's a different discussion. As I understand things Xavier will permit members to make occasional trades but full-time dealers are not welcome. I don't speak for Xavier, this is my understanding of the forum rules based on a brief discussion between Xavier and the widely missed Matt Probert. (See the forum rules at the top of the page).
There are several well-respected members who have offered items for sale. These are people who we know and trust. I've made enquires to a couple but we couldn't agree on a price, but let me say right away that I would have no hesitation in making a deal with either person. I would hate to see a blanket ban on intra-member coin sales as there are some high ticket items which don't lend themselves to the swapping format. A rare coin may be of great interest to other swappers but it is unlikely that they will have a simliar value piece to offer in an area you collect. So by all means let's not kill off this particular avenue. Even if it were banned it would just be carried out by private messages where there is little chance of a more experienced collector calling shenanigans on an obvious scam attempt.
However, what about members who are not here to trade coins, but to buy and sell at a (often obscene) profit? Is that the future we want to see? Far be it for me to say that they are unwelcome but personally if I am going to buy a coin I would prefer to pay a fellow collector the money. Same with selling, I don't sell coins because of fraudulent buyers and chargebacks, I much prefer to trade. However if I was, I wouldn't be selling for ten cents on the dollar to someone else to flip. Why can't these coin dealer wannabes set up their own website to conduct business like legitimate dealers do!
So, I got carried away with opnion... back to the facts. If someone you don't know is making an offer which is too good to be true then it's almost a certainty that a} your coins will get "lost in the mail" or b} the seller will disappear. If you see the same person on multiple forum posts about a variety of different coins claiming to have those coins available for a price, take a reality check.
Lastly, the payment
If you are satisfied that both the source and the offer are legitimate then it's time to consider how to make the payment. If you pay by credit card you will have a certain amount of protection if the items are not as described or fail to arrive. Intermediaries such as PayPal also offer some degree of protection. While this protection won't help if you are determined to be a victim by ignoring all the advice above, it is a very powerful tool in combatting scammers. Which of course is why most crooks are reluctant to accept these payment options!
Do not send concealed cash, personal checks, money orders or wire transfers. If you are accepting payments don't accept any of these either and most especially don't take Western Union transfers. Give me a color printer, photoshop and five minutes and I'll make you as many real-looking Western Union moneygrams as you want. For larger purchases or sales you may be asked to use an escrow service - don't. Anyone with a few dollars can set up an escrow service. Unscrupulous sellers use this to convince the other party that funds won't be released until the item has been delivered, but in truth the funds will be transferred out about 60 seconds after they hit the escrow account.
Finally, this is not a call to start publically outing scammers. I am very aware that our moderator Ben sets great store in keeping things civil, so I'm going to beat him to the punch. If you see a fraud taking place don't start making wild accusations no matter how clear it seems to you and how good your intentions are. By all means, ask pertinent, even pointed question but let the administration team decide what is acceptable. People can then draw their own conclusions based on the response or lack thereof.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Nice one o ye wise man, I usually stick with the motto "if it seems too good to be true it usually is" only time I would go against this if it was a trusted member OR I was meeting in person !
I would like to add to this, that there are new and honest people like me out there who do not have a choice.
I have, compared to what I have seen others have, a rather small collection which I imagine makes it difficult to swap with those who have a good rating, simply because I don't have anything of interest to offer.
So I suppose I will have to start with others who have a smaller collection (or at least lacks what I have on offer), who like me have a low or no ratings until I have something more unusal to offer. Which means taking a risk. Of course the other person is taking the same risk.
Maybe you disagree with my assumption. Luckily the majority of mankind is honest, or at least I believe so. I have two swaps started, and it seems to be going well. What worries me most now is actually if the coins I have sent away will be accepted as good enough. As I haven't done this before, I very recently decided to do something with the 400 odd coins gathered during the last 20 years, and have had to rely on webguides to get the basic idea of grading, I don't know if my grading is acceptable, and if it is if the grades I have sent are acceptable for swapping. Hopefully this will not make it look like I'm trying to rip them off! :)
Great article, however this is mostly on buying; can you also write some for our new swappers about not getting scammed in a swap?
Thanks for the great article!
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!
Quote: pileborgI would like to add to this, that there are new and honest people like me out there who do not have a choice.
I have, compared to what I have seen others have, a rather small collection which I imagine makes it difficult to swap with those who have a good rating, simply because I don't have anything of interest to offer.
So I suppose I will have to start with others who have a smaller collection (or at least lacks what I have on offer), who like me have a low or no ratings until I have something more unusal to offer. Which means taking a risk. Of course the other person is taking the same risk.
Maybe you disagree with my assumption. Luckily the majority of mankind is honest, or at least I believe so. I have two swaps started, and it seems to be going well. What worries me most now is actually if the coins I have sent away will be accepted as good enough. As I haven't done this before, I very recently decided to do something with the 400 odd coins gathered during the last 20 years, and have had to rely on webguides to get the basic idea of grading, I don't know if my grading is acceptable, and if it is if the grades I have sent are acceptable for swapping. Hopefully this will not make it look like I'm trying to rip them off! :)
Don't worry. The swapping world isn't easy to get started on. But once you have a good rating, demand will start to come in. I don't always grade coins that are for swap. But you can use the personal comments field to make potential swappers aware of the condition of the coin you have up for swap.
Quote: redsmithstudiosGreat article, however this is mostly on buying, can you also wright some for our new swappers about not getting scammed in a swap?
Thanks for the great article!
Thank you my friend :)
I will see what I can come up with specifically regarding swapping... good idea. Then perhaps the two articles can be combined and reformatted into a Numisdoc. This may take a little while so if anyone has any good ideas or suggestions let's post them here and combine them.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: pileborgI would like to add to this, that there are new and honest people like me out there who do not have a choice.
I have, compared to what I have seen others have, a rather small collection which I imagine makes it difficult to swap with those who have a good rating, simply because I don't have anything of interest to offer.
So I suppose I will have to start with others who have a smaller collection (or at least lacks what I have on offer), who like me have a low or no ratings until I have something more unusal to offer. Which means taking a risk. Of course the other person is taking the same risk.
Maybe you disagree with my assumption. Luckily the majority of mankind is honest, or at least I believe so. I have two swaps started, and it seems to be going well. What worries me most now is actually if the coins I have sent away will be accepted as good enough. As I haven't done this before, I very recently decided to do something with the 400 odd coins gathered during the last 20 years, and have had to rely on webguides to get the basic idea of grading, I don't know if my grading is acceptable, and if it is if the grades I have sent are acceptable for swapping. Hopefully this will not make it look like I'm trying to rip them off! :)
Hello Pileborg and welcome to Numista,
It is of course more difficult for a new member to get established.
It may help to keep in mind that there are basically three types of swappers, those who are also part-time dealers, those collecting on a very wide scale, and those with more focused (or less ambitious!) interests. For my part, I think I fall into the third category which means that I have most of the common dates already so I'm looking to either fill a more difficult date or upgrade to a better condition coin. I'm not really in the market for what we often describe uncharitably as "pocket change" although I do sometimes swap for a low value modern coin because I like them. The Egyptian pound coins with King Tut's death mask on them are a good example, not worth a lot but I think they are beautiful. The second type is much more likely to be interested in lower value coins, as well as the more desirable ones. There are several members here whose collections are numbered in the tens of thousands as well as newer people who are just starting out. One of the great strengths of Numista is it is suitable for all types of collectors. The Swedish coins you get in your change every day may be very interesting to someone in another country especially if they are around the uncirculated grade. I would suggest you pick out a few nicer ones, especially higher denomination ones. (I'm guessing Sweden didn't sign up for the awful Euro)
With regard to grading, don't be intimidated by the thought that someone might disagree and if in doubt err on the side of caution. I would suggest you ask your swap partners to let you know how they would grade your coins, that way you will get a feel for it. I would imagine that there are very few people who would complain about the grading efforts of a new member, especially for lower value coins where the difference is a few cents at most. It's about enjoyment, not trying to screw every last cent out of a deal so if someone is so intense then it's probably not someone you would wish to swap with again anyway.
Good luck and have fun!
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
well put again Phil, there are many swappers who are looking for a very common coin because they collect every year, mintmark and any other thing possible. I am glad to have had so many common coins in my list because some one has wanted many of them. You never know what one might want. Some times it will just be a little common coin added to a bigger swap, or a whole list of common coins.
If you are a beginner and do not have many to start with, Phil is right, add every coin from you own country also, you will get swaps!
Taking a break from swapping for a while, but still interested in pre 1799 Spanish coins, I will make time for that!
Good write up Phil and thanks for directing me to this article you've written.. First I'd like to mention that as a fairly new swapper on here I expect that my opinion can be taken or ignored by more veteran swappers, but here is my 2 cents;
Having collected coins since before PayPal, Ebay and Forums like this existed, I can remember when things were much simpler, yet extremely lonely for collectors.. Unless you already had a circle of friends in the hobby, or frequently carried your collection to coin shops and shows, there were few chances anyone could ever swindle you for your coins. There were also much fewer chances of ever meeting other collectors and finding new coins to collect. And fewer for just learning about numismatics. The World Wide Web changed this hobby dramatically for us. And along with the many new opportunities come new risks and dangers. This forum combines and delivers the opportunity for all the things mentioned above.
I know a good thing when I see one and Numista is a good thing. And in the short time I've been a member I have seen the potential it has to become even greater. I do believe there is some needed basic structure or guideline that is missing. And not only for new members and collectors to get started and advance. But also to guide and help everyone who is genuinely interested in conducting fair and honest dealings. Such a structure in itself would create the catalyst needed to weed out unwanted practices and activities.
Phil, all the things you have written here should be noted and preserved as a reference. And can serve as the foundation in forming a well organized and informed numismatic community. There may not presently be enough activity on this site to make such a guide practical. But I don't think growth will be possible without one.
Regrads
Very nice write by pnightingale. The write-up started with swap situations and making readers aware of scamsters, who may rip you off in the swap. Good suggestions about the study of profile and the feed backs received. I may add another point; view his Collection. Quality of his coins collection is reflection of his personality. Many collectors block view of their collections for reasons best known to them. You see funny figures in front of Collection, such as 0 coins/29 countries. How can you make swap with such a person. One of collector said "I do not want to show my collection open it's more secure if not all people can see which coins I have, robbers thieves and so on" He feel coins can be stolen via internet. I suggest, avoid collectors who have hidden collection. You never know what else they are hiding from you. Just Avoid Them. If you view your partner's collection, and certainly he views your collection; you can improve the scope and quality of the swap.
Quote: baggasureshVery nice write by pnightingale. The write-up started with swap situations and making readers aware of scamsters, who may rip you off in the swap. Good suggestions about the study of profile and the feed backs received. I may add another point; view his Collection. Quality of his coins collection is reflection of his personality. Many collectors block view of their collections for reasons best known to them. You see funny figures in front of Collection, such as 0 coins/29 countries. How can you make swap with such a person. One of collector said "I do not want to show my collection open it's more secure if not all people can see which coins I have, robbers thieves and so on" He feel coins can be stolen via internet. I suggest, avoid collectors who have hidden collection. You never know what else they are hiding from you. Just Avoid Them. If you view your partner's collection, and certainly he views your collection; you can improve the scope and quality of the swap.
Sure, baggasuresh, please avoid me, I'm a potential scammer! I'll find other swappers who are not extremely suspicious. BTW, my reason of not allowing to view my collection is that I can reserve the coins for the swaps under negotiation easily by unchecking the "exchange" box. Your psychological insights are plainly wrong in my case, and I think they're wrong in many other cases.
I have to say that I would respect a person's decision, and not count it against them at all if they chose not to show their collection. I could care less, all I am interested in is what they have to swap. I think the only things that should raise suspicion are things like the length of time as a member, number of swaps over that time period, most recent swap, number of forum posts. And the feedback they have left for others. Just like improving your credit rating. If a person's profile/feedback indicates a good track record over time and positive interactions with established members, then why the need to dig any further?
Sure, baggasuresh, please avoid me, I'm a potential scammer! I'll find other swappers who are not extremely suspicious. BTW, my reason of not allowing to view my collection is that I can reserve the coins for the swaps under negotiation easily by unchecking the "exchange" box. Your psychological insights are plainly wrong in my case, and I think they're wrong in many other cases.
Coins for the swaps under negotiation can easily be reserved by unchecking the "exchange" box. One can still have his Collection open to view, instead of keeping Collection under the clouds of darkness. The procedure is simple steps:
Settings>scroll down to Personal options>check first two boxes>Save changes.
I'll find other swappers who are not extremely suspicious. BTW, my reason of not allowing to view my collection is that I can reserve the coins for the swaps under negotiation easily by unchecking the "exchange" box. Your psychological insights are plainly wrong in my case, and I think they're wrong in many other cases.