Swap trouble

Dear All

One more cheater in Numista and want all to be aware of him. I just received message from another fellow swapper that he also got cheated by him

https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=29353

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PM removed by bam777

This is bad. He's a Numista referee.  

How come such people are Numista Referees. I also find he has an excellent swap record. So it could be he has gone bad suddenly? If only I was cheated it is fine, but two people means worrying.

I know this person from begining. He has cheated my brother. After giving him ratings he deleted it too. I have contacted XAVIER regarding him. After some message Xavier has stopped contacting him ( My Brother).

He has cheated my brother when he has 2-3 ratings. So, it may be he has cheated some more persons too. And he had deleted the ratings.

Looks then like he has admin capacity and can do things at his whims and fancy?

Ouch. Don't think this helps Numista's reputation. But per forum rules you are not allowed to share the name publicly, rather give it to a team admin.

Regards,
Daniele Barbagallo

But, if we can't discuss name on forum, how we can inform it to other members? On that time, I have not discussed on forum for this reason. But, now when I saw her, I can't stop myself from telling about of him.

Quote: bideshBut, if we can't discuss name on forum, how we can inform it to other members? On that time, I have not discussed on forum for this reason. But, now when I saw her, I can't stop myself from telling about of him.

I am not an admin, I don't enforce the rules. I just have been on here for a long time. All I am saying is just message a person from the team.

The true nature of the Numista forum is once again revealed. Its purpose continues in the same exact direction. This time a Numista referee is accused. No surprise.

Yes; I was just thinking that the forum was healthy. People are supposed to message me! Then I can look into it and try to find out both sides of the story. Then I can try to work out what to do.

Sorry, I do not know that, we can contact, Moderator. Thanks for information.

Hi Bam - I did post to you about this guy. No action was taken and his account was not even having a banner warning people. So I posted here in the forum.

I did follow the Numista rules perfectly.

I swapped coins with him and I got the coins after a long time. It wasn't the best coins but better than nothing.  

31 completed swaps and this is the first issue, are you sure you're not jumping to conclusions that he's a "cheater"? It could just be the coins getting lost in the mail and he's not responding because he's on holiday or unable to get access to a computer for a while. I really think it's a bit harsh to plaster his name on the forum.

And to be perfectly blunt - looking at your swap list there's nothing that a respected swapper would bother wasting his time converting to a "cheater" over. Why ruin a record of 30 perfect swaps for a handful of modern Indian and Indonesian rupees?

Quote: neilithic31 completed swaps and this is the first issue, are you sure you're not jumping to conclusions that he's a "cheater"? It could just be the coins getting lost in the mail and he's not responding because he's on holiday or unable to get access to a computer for a while. I really think it's a bit harsh to plaster his name on the forum.

And to be perfectly blunt - looking at your swap list there's nothing that a respected swapper would bother wasting his time converting to a "cheater" over. Why ruin a record of 30 perfect swaps for a handful of modern Indian and Indonesian rupees?

Hi Neilithic -  I suppose you are refering to my swap list. I would appreciate if you can be more polite in your language than rubbishing other people swaps. I also did not blame him or name him as a cheater. I still have suspicions but another member wrote to me that he also got cheated and hence i refer to his message where he termed this gentleman as a cheater and not mine. I hope you would also stop calling other swaps as rubbish coins. For you if you don't like my coins then don't swap. Why first of all you agree to rubbish coins then after swap confirmation keep low profile and quiet? This is what this gentleman did. He first said he was on holiday and i waited and after a while he said he is back. Then i asked him if he can proceed with the swap and send me the coins. He became silent. There are more polite ways of withdrawing from a confirmed swap. It depends on what you call as rubbish... it will be very easy for others to rubbish your message as well... Let us be more polite here in the forum.

Quote: neilithic31 completed swaps and this is the first issue, are you sure you're not jumping to conclusions that he's a "cheater"? It could just be the coins getting lost in the mail and he's not responding because he's on holiday or unable to get access to a computer for a while. I really think it's a bit harsh to plaster his name on the forum.

And to be perfectly blunt - looking at your swap list there's nothing that a respected swapper would bother wasting his time converting to a "cheater" over. Why ruin a record of 30 perfect swaps for a handful of modern Indian and Indonesian rupees?

He cheated not one but two people here. "Bidesh" brother got cheated it seems. So what more proof do you need? having some successful swaps does not mean that a person is clean always. one has to be honest and if you are doubtful then better dont agree for a swap.

Quote: madhunagaI also did not blame him or name him as a cheater.

The title of your thread is "One more cheater is confirmed"  How is that not calling them a cheater?  

Also I wasn't rubbishing your coins.  I was just stating that they're coins with a pretty low catalogue value, which they are.  I was stating a fact not rubbishing the coins.

I just question why someone would go out of their way to turn a cheater for a handful of coins that's only worth a few dollars after many successful swaps.  It doesn't make sense.   If they were building up their rating to start cheating people they'd be asking to swap gold and silver, not modern base metal coins.  

I have seen a few threads you've started complaining about not receiving coins and calling the swappers "cheaters", If you haven't been receiving your coins then perhaps you should start pointing your finger at your postal service rather than your swapping partners.

A tear of joy comes to my eye. I can't express the pride I feel when I see any forum member (neilithic in this case) stick up for what he originaly posted and believes. He also manages to present it in such a rational and concise manner. Thoroughly enjoyable read.

Statistically speaking, I was wondering which parts of the world start the most "Cheated, Scammer, Swindler, Thief, etc." type of forum topics and which parts of the world are most often mentioned in such topics. Nothing against madhunaga, just seems that if we have friends and brothers and their friends and relatives being cheated (sorry, didn't follow the family tree), maybe there is an epidemic somewhere more specific than "THE WHOLE WORLD". Maybe, those specific areas should have their own moderators. God knows the time zones are different and we have plenty of "English only" speaking Numista members/moderators sitting on the bench (often in silence), while bam777 can't even get a heads up and some time to act on an issue such as this one.

I'm going to guess and say Eastern Europe and Asia could use their own multilingual moderators (for various reasons, Xavier and his current location do not count). We've already been told and reminded several times, that based on numbers alone, Asian members have a huge presence here on Numista. That alone seems like reason enough. A long peaceful track record on the forum and a psychological evaluation should be a must. Needless to say, I wouldn't qualify.  

There should also be a "Two sides to every accusation rule". Making it so, that topics like this one get deleted/blocked immediately and do not emerge until a Numista representative has had a chance to analyze and contact both parties involved. Maybe Xavier will care, since these particular types of accusations often end in a loss of a formerly productive member of Numista. This means, Numista is allowing for a loss of members that actually use Numista, enter coins on Numista and trade coins on Numista. Might be worth looking into...

In case the member doesn't use the forums I have PM'd them to let them know their reputation is being besmirched, hopefully we'll hear their side of the story soon and madhunaga will get his reply about the location of his coins.

Dear neilithic,

Generally I don't go around complaining unless I really got cheated and found no response from the moderator team. It might be a fact that moderators are busy and have their own jobs to do. In this case there was yet another person who wrote to me asking if this person also cheated me. I said yes and will represent in the forum before many others get cheated. There are several honest swappers here and and some cheats also. I do agree we have to get the other side of story also. This happened to me with yet another member who is a honest guy also with many swaps. But he did not send me coins for a long time and after bam777 intervened and checked with him we found that he had some genuine issues at home and after apologies he sent me the coins. So I do follow the proper route to ensure the other person is not being accused wrongly. In this case I did follow up also and asked bam777 to check as this guy had some genuine swaps as well. But bam777 could not get any answer so far. Also I got this message from two other members here and hence I thought it would be prudent to warn others.

Well I still don't agree that you were polite here. Look at your words in your message - "looking at your swap list there's nothing that a respected swapper would bother wasting his time...".  You mean to say there are 109 swappers in Numista who are not respected swappers? Let us not start a war here. I don't want to argue with you or write back in a way like you did. Period.

What I was saying is the most realistic scenario is usually what has happened.  A swapper building up 30 swaps just so he can steal some cheap modern coins from you is not realistic.  There are many more likely scenarios like they were lost in the post  

The fact that I've seen at least 3 other posts from you accusing others of cheating you when coins have not arrived, and in one of the comments on your swaps complaining that they never received your coins, you respond that it's probably lost in the post and you'd already lost 3 in the last few months.  That leads me to believe the most likely scenario is that they've been lost in the post.

As to the gentleman not responding, there are many things that can explain that.  I once had my computer break and I had no access for 2 months.  Or they're on holiday, or may be sick and in hospital.  

Many reasons besides your belief that the whole world seems to be ganging up on you to steal your cheap modern coins.

Quote: neilithicAs to the gentleman not responding, there are many things that can explain that.  I once had my computer break and I had no access for 2 months.  Or they're on holiday, or may be sick and in hospital.

This is the reason why I think it's better if the last logged-in should be indicated on everyone's profile to know if they are busy and have no access to Numista.

I think the postal system is at fault here.
Please use appropriate channels to discuss this and I think many have you have been sensible in discussing this.
Again we can't jump straight away to saying that collectors are scamming.

Quote: neilithicI once had my computer break and I had no access for 2 months.

New rule, must have 2 computers, smart phone and tablet to join Numista.  

545196   This is the tracking id which he gave my brother. Can you belive that it is a valid tracking id!!!
My brother ask him many times to give actual tracking id. But, no reply.

These kind of reactions, make me very cautious before proposing or accepting swaps in the future.
Perhaps I'm a little bit naive, but I do believe that we use this marvelous site just to help each other to complete our collections. That's why I do accept swap request from everybody.
I've been lucky till now and I do always got my coins, but I do understand the frustration of those who get their coins lost.

Swapping coins with strangers is and remains a risk that we all take, but I'm very happy with this numismatic site and it's members.

Till swaps, Tony

Well put, Tony!

Well once again Neilithic wants to carry on with the assault of calling others coins "cheap modern ones", he also assumes that it is postal fault. Bam777 also assumes it is postal fault. In this case what is wrong with replying to messages through Numista? It does not require postman to steal coins.

Neilithic- i have to advise you one thing, it is not me who is paranoid about all ganging up to cheat me. I have been one of the very few to start a swap with new comers knowing the risks i take. Many of my ex swappers would agree that it was their first swap with me. I take risks in those cases and some i have lost and never complained knowing i take the risk and the conseuqence i have to take also. Now you are very very parnoid about this i dont know why?

madhunaga, do you like my Numista token entry?   I think it is appropriate, since most of us here have had the pleasure of playing cop on a hunch and declining a swap. The famous, I'll check off all your silver and you pick from what's in my list, has been tried on many members here. Most of the time, the policeman in us, prevents fraud before it happens. Thieves still manage because of the greed, inexperience or opportunism (I've witnessed all three personally, here on Numista) that exists in our human nature. Some of us can not overcome the temptation or opportunity. Then we pay for it.

Life is a risk, but, I really do not have time for petty risks over common coins. The aggravation and postal fees, just like the value, are not worth it for me. I would rather minimize the risk by sending something really valuable, making registered mail worth it and making the swap worthwhile. At some point you just get tired of the game, the traps, the defense, the revenge, the accusations and so on.

It has gotten to the point, where I no longer swap on Numista.

The problem with your recent accusation is that it appears to be a little less valid than some others you've made. The silly thing is that this user is on his 1st negative rating while other good members may have 2 or 3 negatives and remain respected, mainly because no one started a topic calling them a cheater. The Numista system only starts defending itself (and us by coincidence) with a warning, when there are 2 or 3 negatives out of the last 5 ratings. Maybe it is advisable to start your negative topic or accusation, once that criteria is met. What do you think?

I think your coins are lovely and offer something unique to many members. They do not interest me, but, I see why people want them. Wishing you a long lucky streak of swaps, without problems.

@torontokuba- thanks for at least giving respect to others. I appreciate your message here. Yes I still have not reached a point where I will stop. Swaps are fun and risk combined. I like to take calculated risks and some times I do know it will go wrong sometime or the other. I have already accepted that. So I will be here for long time to come, till someone in my country bans coins being sent by post .. I will continue to be around, swapping, posting at the forum and actively supporting Numista.  

So I hope this thread is closed with this post and no more time is spent in meaningless arguments by all.