Ban of ISIS tokens or whatever they may be from Numista

This morning I saw uploaded on "Latest coins" coins or tokens registered as tokens of the ISIS.

Dear friends and Numista members,
Currency has been an important element of advanced / non primitive civilizations. Coins are not just a form of currency but also a form of artistic expression and probably this is one of the reasons why we like and collect them.
I see these new ISIS coins or tokens; I do not know if the issuance of them is a sick joke or a twisted but potentially profitable idea of some individual or company or if ISIS actually issued currency, but I know that our reaction to it has to be negative. And although I understand that one of the site's goals is to be constantly updated, I strongly feel that even by registering them as tokens we provide a form of recognition and "legalization" to this ISIS - an organization whose practices threaten humanity and are contrary to fundamental values of the civilized world.
Therefore I ask Numista members to disregard these coins and not include them to their individual collections and the Numista authorities to ban all kinds of coins or tokens related or referring to the ISIS from this site.
I hope everyone understands that this proposal does not discriminate against any religion, because ISIS is an embarrassment to all good people.

Thank you,
AndreasA.

I would like to know who has uploaded them for them to be included in "Latest coins" in the first place? even if it is some form of independent body, The use and collection of these coins is offensive.

These coins have been talked about in two separate topics and I can assure you that we all think the same, they need to be blanked across the whole coin collecting communities.

Actually, I have something quite different to say.

I wanted to start a topic asked how we should catalog ISIS coins, but I decided against it because it would probably go in the wrong direction at some point.

I think ISIS "coins" should be catalogued, and I'll tell you why. ISIS is a horrible organization, no doubt, but they are still a legitimate part of history. The "coins" that they "produce" (some sources say they don't even exist yet) should be boycotted, but we should still keep a record of them. Maybe Xavier should modify the coin pages to insert a big red warning about how ISIS is an active and dangerous terrorist organization, and of course prevent people from adding these "coins" into their collections.

But the bottom line is, WE CAN'T ERASE NUMISMATIC HISTORY!

Dear sir,
It is interesting and perhaps romantic to see this issuance of ISIS coins as making of numismatic history. Definitely not legitimate, if not for other reasons, because history and legitimacy are different things.

However, the remark you used as a "bottom line" with capital letters "WE CAN'T ERASE NUMISMATIC HISTORY" is not relevant to the point I was making. It may lead to misunderstanding, so let me explain: first of all, I do not know if history (numismatic or other) can be erased; in any case, if someone has achieved it, we wouldn't know about it, right?

I can assure you that erasing history was not my intention (perhaps if I were the ISIS it would), I was only hoping that registering these coins would be a lesser priority. Of course the preventive actions you suggest are good, but I think that banning them would be even better. This would not mean that we are not aware of the existence of ISIS and the coins; I am only saying that banning would be a better choice.

Yes, but how can you ban ISIS coins from Numista while deleting the catalog entries (which seems to be your proposal anyway)?

Catalog entries don't legitimatize the issuing authority, look through the * Tokens * section to see how many fake countries are in there. Yes, you can't compare ISIS to Abkhazkia or Westarctica, but all three claim to be states, all three are not states, and all three have issued "coins".

I'm mostly on the same line as dptashny. We all agree about how horrible the ISIS terrorist organization is, but it shouldn't prevent from giving information about these coins. There is no recognition in their presence in the catalogue, like there is no recognition in the media coverage the coins had.

Usually no political opinion is expressed on Numista. Coins from other criminal governments are listed in the catalogue without any warning. Given the exceptional context caused by ISIS, I made an exception and I added an informative note about ISIS on the coins' pages. The text from the note is mainly taken from Wikipedia.

Thank you Xavier, this is the right thing to do. I would also prevent users from adding these "coins" into their collections because it is illegal in most "normal" countries.

It's not the role of a coin website to decide which coins are morally acceptable even though it's very tempting to do so. Once you let that genie out of the lamp there's no telling where it will end. Everyone dislikes a country here and there.

I wouldn't consider buying or owning a coin associated with ISIS, it's a vile philosophy and has no legal standing to issue coins although that hasn't stopped other non-countries from doing the same. However it's an organization which is enjoying a lot of support, people from Europe and the US are travelling to join them or are supporting them less directly. On purely numismatic grounds the inclusion has as much merit as Hutt River.

I'd prefer for us to simply ignore them, individually or collectively. If people want to live under such a regime then let them, if people want to buy tainted coins let them.

If you are considering an exchange with somebody and he is offering ISIS coins in his swap list then call it off and tell him exactly why. Trust me, the distaste of one's peers is a far bigger deterrent than trying to ban them.

Very well said Phil!

I completely agree with dptashny!

Phil - I'm not saying that ISIS "coins" should be "locked" based on moral grounds, I am talking about legal grounds. Owning ISIS "coins" is illegal, and Numista shouldn't be supporting illegal activities by making unsuspecting people think it is okay to own them (unless you want a visit from your country's intelligence service!).

Quote: "dptashny"​Actually, I have something quite different to say.
​
​I wanted to start a topic asked how we should catalog ISIS coins, but I decided against it because it would probably go in the wrong direction at some point.
​
​I think ISIS "coins" should be catalogued, and I'll tell you why. ISIS is a horrible organization, no doubt, but they are still a legitimate part of history. The "coins" that they "produce" (some sources say they don't even exist yet) should be boycotted, but we should still keep a record of them. Maybe Xavier should modify the coin pages to insert a big red warning about how ISIS is an active and dangerous terrorist organization, and of course prevent people from adding these "coins" into their collections.
​
​But the bottom line is, WE CAN'T ERASE NUMISMATIC HISTORY!
​
​

​Agreed.

Swastikas are illegal in Germany I believe.

Slippery slope my friends.

But not in every country. And regardless Nazi Germany collapsed 70 years ago.

ISIS is an active terrorist organization (which would happily kill us all) and supporting them is banned in most places in the world.

The USA 1933 double head eagle and the 1913 liberty nickel were illegal. I don't see you making any noise about them being removed from the catalogue.

WERE is the key word here!

When and if ISIS is destroyed, we will be able to say, "ISIS "coins" were illegal". Regardless, buying them is an actual threat to us personally (which is why they are illegal in the first place). This has nothing to do with morality.

They actually ARE still officially illegal but are tolerated.

I personally would never buy the ISIS coins because I am against what they stand for, but listing them in a catalogue to show that they exist is not promoting illegal activity. As Phil says, if someone has them for offer in their swap list, just pull out of the swap and let them know why.

Am I the only one who is thankful that a certain troll isn't currently around to inflame this issue with over the top comments and moral equivalency?

Well done on maintaining he civility, it's really a hot button issue so it's good to see that maturity still prevails. I think it's safe to say that we can agree on the offensive nature of these coins and what they represent but differ slightly on how to express that distaste.

And there, I think we should leave it. The matter has been dealt with swiftly and in a balanced way, there is no benefit from arguing over things we can't change but we can do our small part by denying these animals the oxygen of publicity.

Quote: "pnightingale"​Am I the only one who is thankful that a certain troll isn't currently around to inflame this issue with over the top comments and moral equivalency?

​

​His style reminds me of Torontokuba who has been pretty quiet the last couple of years.

I miss him very much. Torontokuba of course not the current miscreant.

He is a very highly skilled numismatist which to me raised him above a mere troll. Plus I couldn't imagine he would, even in his more pugnacious moments, ever compare ISIS to a European democracy. That's when the line was crossed for me.

I know it's not him, but in amongst his decent posts, he also used to make outlandish statements and personal attacks against other members, seemingly because he just wanted to provoke an argument.

Why dont you guys ban all of the Third Reich, Soviet Union and US coins all for the same reason??

Pnightingale you said " ... we can do our small part by denying these animals the oxygen of publicity". I could not say it (and I didn't) in better words, but that was my intention from the beginning, that's why I made the suggestion. But isn't there a contradiction? I mean, isn't it like providing them with the oxygen of publicity?
Anyway, I hope I did not bother anyone with my suggestion and I won't insist on this any further since the majority of the opinions expressed are against.

Quote: "AndreasA."​Pnightingale you said " ... we can do our small part by denying these animals the oxygen of publicity". I could not say it (and I didn't) in better words, but that was my intention from the beginning, that's why I made the suggestion. But isn't there a contradiction? I mean, isn't it like providing them with the oxygen of publicity?
​Anyway, I hope I did not bother anyone with my suggestion and I won't insist on this any further since the majority of the opinions expressed are against.

​Yeah you really can't win can you?

I reckon in the absence of any lead from our Governments and the UN it's up to us to do what small part we can by refusing to accept any attempts to normalize such an aberration. In that regard I applaud your original idea but would suggest that rather than directing our wrath against the inanimate coins, which may not even exist, we should direct it at anyone who would seek to profit by trading them.

The comments that these would be historical as compared to the Nazi 3rd Reich has a big gaping hole in it.
Nazi coins are part of history, ISIS coins are not historical until ISIS is wiped out and no longer exists, just like the Nazi's, just like Romans and any other tyrannous Regime that no longer exists.

Nazi coins no longer provide a cash inflow to gain profit if bought or collected, ISIS coins do.

The next bullet that passes through an ally or child could be a bullet your collecting of these coins has paid for, What else do you think their profit will be going on?

The views supporting this in my opinion are simply disturbing on any level, trying to justify it is even worse.

Nobody is trying to justify it my dear Fluke. At least that's not how I read it and certainly not how I wrote any part of it.

I should make clear, while recognizing that there is significant support for this abomination in certain parts of the world, that's their decision to make, not ours. We have no more right to be bombing them than they do to be attacking us. The world would be a better place if everyone just minded their own affairs and stopped worrying about which God somebody several thousand miles away is praying to.

If the principal export of the Middle East was potatoes instead of oil we would not be interfering with them. That interference caused a vacuum and a need for revenge which was filled by ISIS.

Saddam Hussein, Bashir Assad, Muammar Ghadaffi, Hosni Mubarak might not have been very nice people but at least they maintained stability. Right up until the point where we elected a community organizer with an over simplistic view of the world into a position he was not remotely equipped to handle. Now they are gone, or going, and the whole region is in flames. Brutal stability has been replaced by barbaric anarchy of the worst kind and it is by our own hands.

This is what Ron Paul warned us would happen back in 2007 and he was ridiculed as a crazy old man by both main parties. So we opted for the slick talking demagogue instead and this is the result.

Before my beta male stalker fan club begin mass reporting this as "political" let me make clear, our current dud was preceded by several lesser duds of both parties who likewise tried to mask domestic mediocrity by overseas adventures and nation building. This isn't a partisan political stance, it's merely established historical fact. It's quite the opposite of "political" which would be "rah, rah, we're the good guys, let's nuke them, or behead the infidels" as opposed to "how about we all just knock it off and quit trying to impose our beliefs on others". I trust this is sufficiently clear to the moderators, if not to the carpal tunnel victims.

I find the ISIS cois/tokens disturbing, no doubt, but I still can't help myself to have a small interest in them as well. I want nothing to do with the organization of ISIS, but I stand the same to the Nazi coins. What Hitler and Nazi Germany did during the WWII is nothing but disturbing and should've never happend. But still, here we are with them in our catalog and no one has every been thinking twice about it.
Nut, the thing with ISIS is that it is now. It is in our time, and it is still happening. That's why I rekon we should not allow them in our catalog. Not yet anyway.

Putting a listing in the legendarily messy "Tokens" section is almost as good as deleting it anyway

-nothing-

Different opinions about the original question have been exposed. Now the topic is sleeping onto a political debate, which is not the purpose of this website. I prefer to close this topic.