Salzburg 1 Pfenning - What's the difference? [solved]

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71905.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces65508.html
I couldn't see any difference between the two. Any help is appreciated.

Good question, they look identical to me too.

I'm guessing the difference is in the specs but they are not included for the KM 454 type. I'm subscribed to this topic now so I guess we can both find out together eh?

It's really great to see a young collector getting a taste for research. Good choice with these old copper coins too, I love them even though they are crude.

I saw one of these coins for sale, so I checked on Numista and I saw both entries. There's one of the Salzburg Kreuzers for sale, too. I just love Austrian coins so much!

NGC lists the coins as being identical except for the extra year and the KM number.

http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/austrian-states-salzburg-pfenning-km-455-1783-1784-cuid-86329-duid-235200

http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/austrian-states-salzburg-pfenning-km-454-1783-cuid-86325-duid-235196

If it's anything like the German states you're probably gunna need someone who specialises to refer too.. I have one contact who is the "go-to" guy got the house of welf and all its subsidiaries.

From my my experience of the German ones it can just be how some letters are written, maybe mint masters initials or the shield or dots even can vary ever so slightly !

There is also the possibility that one of the pictures sets is of the wrong coin

Look at the pictures:



The KM# 454 (upper picture) has wide bars and a thick lion on the obverse, the KM# 455 (lower picture) has a small lion and small bars.
The KM# 454 has flowers beside the "1" on the reverse and the "1" is different than the "1" on the KM# 455, the KM# 455 has no flowers beside the "1".

Quote: "ZuluRaptorSpace"NGC lists the coins as being identical except for the extra year and the KM number.

http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/austrian-states-salzburg-pfenning-km-455-1783-1784-cuid-86329-duid-235200

​http://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/austrian-states-salzburg-pfenning-km-454-1783-cuid-86325-duid-235196

NGC has no pictures, so with only a description it's difficult to say "NGC lists the coins as being identical except for the extra year and the KM number".

Thanks Essor Prof for the resolution.

It's safe to say then that Numista is using the wrong image for the KM 454 coin.

Yes, the images of the KM# 454 on Numista are not completely right. It seems it is the obverse of the KM# 455 coin with the reverse of the KM# 454 coin (just like the Numista pictures for the KM# 455 coin). That's of course the reason why you didn't see a difference between those two coins.
Unless the pictures in Krause are wrong. There is one Numista member who owns the KM# 455 coin (no one here owns the KM# 454). If he can show us the pictures of his coin we know for sure if the pictures in Krause are correct.
I didn't make a change request about these pictures because the pictures in my reply aren't mine. They are from the Krause catalog, so I don't know how it works with the copyright.

By the way, I made a mistake too (meanwhile already corrected): in my first reply you can obviously see it's the upper picture with the thick lion and the lower picture with the small lion in stead of vice versa.

Thanks for all the help! I didn't think to check Krause, and NGC seemingly never has pictures. But now I've got a new problem. The coin that's for sale doesn't match either of the pictures you put up. Does anyone know of some extra varieties? The seller says that it's a KM455, but I'm not so sure. The obverse looks like the KM454, but the reverse is totally different.

Strange. These are the same pictures as on the Numista KM# 454 coin.
So it is possible that in Krause the two reverses are exchanged.
Ecapoe posted the pictures of the KM# 455, so I suppose he's the only owner of this coin in Numista. I'll send him a message.

Yes but even this is a different type because with that style 1 it should have flowers. And just look how the 1 is located, also it has a :

it would be good if you could get member to send photos.

On the subject of modern counterfeits, I doubt that it is a fake because of the (slight) verdigris on the coin. However, it still could be a contemporary counterfeit!

Found another example online.

Site in German:
http://shop.muenzversand.at/Muenzen-u-Medaillen/Salzburg-Muenzen/Hieronymus-Colloredo/Salzburg-Colloredo-1-Pfennig-1783.html#.VgbojstViko
English:
http://shop.muenzversand.at/en/coins-and-medals/archbishops-of-Salzburg-coins/Hieronymus-Colloredo/Salzburg-Colloredo-1-Pfennig-1783.html?lang=1#.Vgboj8tViko

Hello,

Thanks you all for pointing that out, and Essor Prof sending me a message.
For some reason I missed that post, a shame for a referee isn't it I don't know how i can be aware of posts about my catalogues ??
You are indeed right, there is a problem on our catalogue. In fact I realize I have put pics of the same coin on both sheet 454 and 455.
But it is none of the Krause pictures (454 roman I with rosettes and value below wreath, and 455 with thinner lion and different 1).
My best guess is that my coin, both Numista pictures, is 454 a variant without rosettes and I dividing the wreath. Maybe also an error on Krause and the type with smaller 1 may not exist for 1783.

You can see there a whole set of pfennigs, several of 1783 but none with the non roman 1, the non roman 1 is on a 1784 coin, same as on Krause. You can see there is quite a variability in the design. Particularly it does not seem the thickness of the lion is a good criteria.
http://www.medievalcoinage.com/gallery/austria-salzburg.htm

There is the same pattern in all coin dealers I could see on www.

Unfortunately I don't have the Zötll for that time period. Let me investigate further.
First I'll change the pics on our catalogue to fit the Krause and I'll look for the type without rosettes. Sounds fine ?

If you want to send me a good pic of your coin, you're welcome ! Mine is not so nice.

All the best,

André

Hahaha Ecapoe, the problem only gets bigger in stead of smaller after your post. I now count at least five different types/varieties in stead of two for the 1 pfenning Salzburg for the years 1783-1784 on the link you sent. There are pictures of six coins for the 1 pfenning 1783-1784 but I think the second and fifth coin are the same. I don't see any difference at first sight, but the fifth coin is in a very bad condition and maybe that's the reason I miss the difference.
The five other coins differ significantly, we don't need a magnifying glass to see those differences. So the question is also, when is it a new type and when is it just a variety (because Krause mentions only two different types)?
The 5 types/varieties we see on that webpage (there are more differences than one per coin, but one is enough to determine it's another type/variety):

1. reverse: no wreath (1783)
2. reverse: no rosettes (1783)
3. obverse: two small bars with curls in between, reverse: rosettes (1783)
4. obverse: two wide bars with curls in between and an extra small bar under the lowest wide bar, reverse rosettes (1783)
5. the same as coin 2 (my opinion)
6. obverse: two small bars, no curls in between, reverse: no roman "1" (1784)

Conclusion: we found at least 5 different types/varieties and Krause only lists 2, so we need a specialized catalog. I never heard of Zöttl before, but of course then there is google. I think to solve our problem we need one of these (or maybe another Numista member has it?):

http://www.antiquitaeten-schwaighofer.at/shop/literatur-muenzen-medaillen-numismatik-buecher/salzburg-muenzen-und-medaillen-1500-bis-1810

http://www.ma-shops.de/fruehwald/cat.php5?catid=905&lang=de&PHPSESSID=h8v5ou2j04e2nf662rs1fuqlu2

Hello,
Interesting isn't it ?
If you want to collect Salzburg coins, Zöttl is the one to have ! I have only the vol 1. That stop before Hyeronimus coinage.
Now they published a catalogue with less info but only one volume. You may want that.
Zöttl numbers each year and variety. I'll ask on a forum here (austria) someone who would have it.

A suivre,
André

As is often the case, I'm in awe at such in-depth knowledge. I learn something new every time I log in it seems. This is how to beat K&M.

Please update if anything new is turned up.

Quote: "Ecapoe"​If you want to send me a good pic of your coin, you're welcome ! Mine is not so nice.
​

​Unfortunately, I don't own this coin yet (but after this post, I think I soon will!). You could probably ask the seller at muenzversand if you can use his pics, though.

On another note, after this thread, I've decided to specialize and collect ONLY Austrian coins!

Note: edited (in bold).

Or you could ask.

I see that someone has fixed it...

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71905.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71904.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces65508.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces58905.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71910.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces71911.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces70872.html

Proud to say that this got into the Top forum topics!

Yes, well done, you've found an error in the catalog, made a good choice for your collection and got yourself on the front page. That's a good run by any standards.

Keep it up.

...and is the 6th web page result on a google chrome search for "salzburg 1 pfennig"!
After this thread, I MUST get this coin! No doubt it would look good in my collection with this:



I'm gonna let this thread die down now, thanks everyone for all of your help!

Hello all,

As a final conclusion, it seems even better as you may have pointed to an error on KM Some would say there are quite a few ...

I had the answer from the forum Numismatik-cafe.at , and I finally got a hand on Zöttl Band 2.

The conclusion, for our 2 coins, is that there as only 2 types for 1783, which I will put as variants of KM#454 in our catalogue, they are types 3 (#3383) and 4 (#3384) in Zöttl. KM#455 is type 5 (Zöttl#3386) but does not exist for 1783 !

I'll correct that on the sheets.

Here are the scans of Zöttl's book. There are 9 different pfennigs ! Good hunt !


I'm available for any request,

Best regards,
André

That Zöttl looks like a very nice catalog. However, also that catalog doesn't bring us the complete solution. In the Zöttl there are only two types for 1783 but at the pictures on that link you've first sent there are clearly three types for 1783:



Previous post:

1. reverse: no wreath (1783) This is wrong, the date on the coin is 1781
2. reverse: no rosettes (1783)
3. obverse: two small bars with curls in between, reverse: rosettes (1783)
4. obverse: two wide bars with curls in between and an extra small bar under the lowest wide bar, reverse rosettes (1783)

The upper left picture we previously mistakenly also took for a 1783 type, but it seems the last digit isn't a 3 but a 1 (as indicated in theZöttl) but then there are still left 3 types in stead of 2 like in the Zöttl.

Hello,
I revised the Pfennigs and finally added 2 to make the 9 types described by Zöttl. I added in comments some info about the extra line on the Austrian shield. I prefer to consider this a variation.
Hope you find the result satisfactory,
Regards,
André
PS. You're welcome to send me pics of your coins when you get some to replace the ones we have