How should the ruler's name be written?

I was asked by a member to change the ruler's name for Gorizia. I am not sure if it should be spelled based on Italian spelling (Carlo) or Austrian spelling (The ruler was Austrian; Karl) or English spelling (Carl)? More generaly, how should the ruler's name be spelled for any country?

Here is the WCC on Gorizia:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic54174.html

In this case I would use "Charles" and generally use English forms of name for rulers as established in historical sources. This would seem to go along with using English names of countries/issuers

Will

From new (yet unpublished and in work) guidelines:

Rulers names:
Should be in English or English form

We cannot allow pure native names, as we would be lost in those pretty soon. Also, in this case - foreign name (Austrian) is his real name, but I would be favor of using name of how he was called locally.

If I combine everything from this, I would use CARL. For me it is understandable, and yet it does not lose its local character (unlike it would with Charles).

So what about Francis II?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?mode=simplifie&p=1&l=gorizia_county&r=franz&e=&d=&ca=3&no=&i=&v=&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&u=&f=&g=&c=&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tp=y&tt=y&te=y&cat=y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

I would like to ask other who read this for opinion, but Franz seems ok and understandable for me. Francis would be too anglicized for my taste.

I think local names, as long as they're in the Latin alphabet, and reasonably similar to the English form (e.g. Jean=John, Karl=Charles, Nikolai=Nicholas, Vittorio Emmanuele=Victor Emmanuel) should be fine.

What ever we do we need to be consistent no feelings, subjective trivialities or case by case please.

Quote: "Idolenz"​What ever we do we need to be consistent no feelings, subjective trivialities or case by case please.

​Yes, that is what I'm confused about. Jarcek laid out the guidelines, then said the do something slightly different (no personal offense at all). We are back to where we started.

Personally I don't really care as I will probably rely on other sources for names of rulers I wish to know and don't see their value in Numista except as identification of portraits. If there will be a guideline to use English why not do so and stop fussing over other forms? This is an English language site and I don't see why there is any need to use other than English forms of name when such are in common use in English-language reference sources.

Will

I personally see no problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_(name)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_(given_name)

I guess guideline should be written better than in the form I described above. That is why it is still in works.

Quote: "Jarcek"​From new (yet unpublished and in work) guidelines:
​
​Rulers names:
​Should be in English or English form
​
​We cannot allow pure native names, as we would be lost in those pretty soon. Also, in this case - foreign name (Austrian) is his real name, but I would be favor of using name of how he was called locally.
​
​ If I combine everything from this, I would use CARL. For me it is understandable, and yet it does not lose its local character (unlike it would with Charles).

​Sorry, I don't understand you. If the English guideline is going to be "in English", why do you recommend Carl?
The French guideline for the ruler name says "vous pouvez calquer le nom utilisé sur Wikipédia en français". We can use the same help, Wikipedia, for both languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VI_(empereur_des_Romains)

Because catalog would loose its nativity and accuracy. I would not like to see Elizabeth instead of Isabel and Charles instead of Carlos or Phillip instead of Felipe in Spanish catalogue. It would just not seemed right to me.

And I guess such names are recognizable and readable by English-using users. If I take Russian catalogue for example - I guess Mikhail or Ekaterina are easily readable and offer much better alternative over Michael and Catherine respectively.

Isn't this the same discussion as with the naming of currencies?

Basically yes.

Well then. Shouldn't the same rules apply with the ruler? I didn't follow this discussion that well, but browsing through the catalog I assume the endonyms are used right now (i.e. Gulden instead of Guilder).

Just thinking out loud. Maybe a mouseover option could apply for these names as well? Just like we use for the description of the designers. In this way (relevant) 'other' names can easily be seen as well.

Quote: "Jarcek"​Because catalog would loose its nativity and accuracy. I would not like to see Elizabeth instead of Isabel and Charles instead of Carlos or Phillip instead of Felipe in Spanish catalogue. It would just not seemed right to me.
​
​And I guess such names are recognizable and readable by English-using users. If I take Russian catalogue for example - I guess Mikhail or Ekaterina are easily readable and offer much better alternative over Michael and Catherine respectively.
​
​

​Don't tell me that. Tell to who is writing the new guidelines.

I do. I guess that the exact guidelines wording which I put here earlier should be changed a little. (That is why new guidelines are still not out - they have flaws)

I prefer to remain with English notation according to Wikipedia. So rather Charles VI than Karl VI or Carl VI.

Hi all,
I post to follow that.
Those Austrian guys who started the post had a german name, an english one, a local one when it was in non german speaking country.
I tend to think it would be better to use the name the person had in its main country - dominion. So in that case the german name. The Italian States catalogue is like that and it looks good. I am afraid I am not 100% consistent in Austria but I work at it ...
Of course it does not solve 100% the case of the emperor Ferdinand I born spanish hence Fernandino, or Karl V / Carlos V. Though Carlos is probably better in that last case.

Have you thought of latin ?

Quote: "Ecapoe"​Hi all,
​I post to follow that.
​Those Austrian guys who started the post had a german name, an english one, a local one when it was in non german speaking country.
​I tend to think it would be better to use the name the person had in its main country - dominion. So in that case the german name. The Italian States catalogue is like that and it looks good. I am afraid I am not 100% consistent in Austria but I work at it ...
​Of course it does not solve 100% the case of the emperor Ferdinand I born spanish hence Fernandino, or Karl V / Carlos V. Though Carlos is probably better in that last case.
​
​Have you thought of latin ?

​It's a good idea, but it doesn't work when you start working with non-latin alphabets. As in Ivan the Terrible: Ива́н Васи́льевич.

I usually just use the name that Krause gives on it's page.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/italian-states-gorizia-1-2-soldo-km-1-1733-1762-cuid-1147583-duid-1485925

Carlo VI

Quote: "Jarcek"​From new (yet unpublished and in work) guidelines:
​
​Rulers names:
​Should be in English or English form

So this basically means that the Spanish Carlos will be changed to Charles and Francisco to Francis in the future?

Quote: "Jarcek"​Because catalog would loose its nativity and accuracy. I would not like to see Elizabeth instead of Isabel and Charles instead of Carlos or Phillip instead of Felipe in Spanish catalogue. It would just not seemed right to me.

Or will the Spanish Carlos still be Carlos and Francisco still be Francisco?

You made a very clear message very unclear very fast.

Quote: "nthn"​

Quote: "Ecapoe"​Hi all,
​​I post to follow that.
...
​

​​It's a good idea, but it doesn't work when you start working with non-latin alphabets. As in Ivan the Terrible: Ива́н Васи́льевич.
​
​I usually just use the name that Krause gives on it's page.
​
​https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/italian-states-gorizia-1-2-soldo-km-1-1733-1762-cuid-1147583-duid-1485925
​
​Carlo VI

​But you have put the names in german in Lombardie.
And right, the non latin don't work. It was the same for currencies.

Oh, now I see the mistake that was eluding me the whole time.

I guess the new guideline will say - English or LATIN ALPHABET FORM...

We will discuss that.